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Wheres the justice?

unlucky

unlucky

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Ive just found out my 17 year old half cousin has been killed in a car crash, I really hardly knew him but its got me thinking. He worked hard, didn't drink or take drugs and didn't harm anyone and this has happened. Why in general does this happen? There ar so may arseholes out there who've bullied, abused and neglected all their lifes and in the most part they could jump in a river and come out with a salmon in their mouth and that only good things happen to. Or at least this is my experience. I've never hurt a fly in my life, I've always been there for anyone who needs help, I've not abused my body and here I am, so f***ed up I can't even leave the house on my own.

I suppose I've got 2 questions here, one is for anyone who is religious, if there is some sort of higher power why is it that the nasty people get more.
The second is, is it really worth being a nice person all your life?? I'm bringing my daughter up to be kind and compassionate to others but should I really be telling her to look after number one and not bother about anyone else??

And I'm not being all salf pitying, I just would like other peoples opinions on this.
 
A

Ainsworth

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hearing things like this is why i struggle with the concept of karma :unsure:
 
Rorschach

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I have some thoughts, but think I'll leave you to grieve. Happy to chat later about it if you wish, but philosophical ponderings are inappropriate during immediate grief.
 
unlucky

unlucky

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No, please ponder away. I really did hardly know him and though I'm upset about it, I'm more upset for his family. As I say when I heard it it just reinforced my beliefs that the worlds a shitty place. I always go a bit too deep into things. Yes, you could say it was a tragic accident but how come its very rare that kids out stealing cars die in crashes. It really does put your belief in karma in some doubt. Up till a few years ago I had great belief that eventually karma would even things out but I guess I'm just getting old, bitter and cynical!!
 
Rorschach

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Well ok then. I'm not a big believer in the dharmic concept of karma, but I do believe that there is a universal reality of balance. I think it is (or at least as it would appear to us) quite chaotic. Like electricity finding the easiest route through a system, I believe cosmic balance acts similarly. It balances as quickly as possible, and those we may think are innocent seem to get hit by the effect. The greater balance of the created world doesn't align with what we may think of as fair, but it manages to remain.

My tuppence worth.
 
Lion Heart

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sorry to hear about this unlucky,i think he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time & yes i really do feel that everyone should be a nice person in there lifes because its a lot better then being an asshole. :innocent:
 
CelticTwilight

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Hi unlucky,

I am sorry to hear about the death of another good person but especially one so young.

I shall first offer my ponderings and then give my answers in the hope that this interaction will at least give you something at this difficult time.

Apologies if my post has you nodding off.

I've looked at quite a few religious and philosophical explanations for existence and influences big or small. One thing seems certain: that we have free will, that is of course unless we are pre-programmed from birth and only appear to make decisions and choices (think natural reactions). Yet I am absolutely certain this is by degree from person to person.

Straight away though as you've done, it becomes a 'why?' question. Why does this happen to good people.

Ultimately I do not think humans have the capacity to know for sure even if they may have actually hit upon the truth.

Some religions will say that the good are sometimes taken by God or gods at an early time to go to some special place without having to dwell in what we are now experiencing - I sometimes wonder if we are in hell based on your sense of injustice which I tend to share.

We create laws but cannot prevent miscarriages of justice because we are fallible. However, our basic laws are based on a godly religion.

Personally I'm an agnostic partly because I cannot and do not think it worth wasting time trying to disprove the positive existence of gods, angels, sprites, fairies or other extra-dimensional entities and even if there is an all powerful deity, I can't believe 'in' it as all good whatever lessons we may be supposed to learn through life's challenges. Hence my belief that good and evil are essentially two facets of the same thing coloured by perspectives. Does the Devil, Satan, Dajjal or whatever other name we wish to apportion the evil doer, act out of injustice and revenge at being cast out of heaven is a question that interests me. But IMHO this kind of thinking throws up more questions than it does answers.

And not everything we are faced with is a life changing Herculean, Goliath slaying experience. Some for instance may experience a debilitating physical or mental condition all their lives without ever having the opportunity to escape from it in this life (regardless of whether the soul lives again). What could we have done that was so bad in a previous life to deserve this torment? Would we wish it on ANYONE else including bad people? Probably not but we'd doubtless care less proportionately if it happened to them.

The deeper we go the more complex it seems to get to the point that life seems to have no other point than living it (unless of course one is religious and heading somewhere specific or at least thinks they are).

My current thinking on this (and it is fluid I'm afraid) is that life as we know it is about chance. Explanations such as astrology for example may provide are far less rigid than the basic 12 types on the face of it as when you get right down to it no two birth charts are identical, as our fingerprints and DNA agree (just to keep reading scientists happy). We are essentially individualistic creatures who have become socialized, our chances the greater by strength and not justice (which may at best punish).

The fittest don't always survive where the pack mentality rules so the safety of the herd becomes more attractive to most than being an individual and unquestioning behaviour subsequently follows to the point many people are not really being themselves (a scary thought I reckon). It is possible to take a calculated risk and survive a crisis or make a personal gain legally or otherwise. Sometimes this involves hurt, even death of others innocent or otherwise. I think the world is full of opportunists for such reason more than any other though. But how many take or need the conscious effort to even think about it beyond pure survival instinct, i.e. is it just natural to bumble along regardless (as many of my family seem to) until faced with questions from someone else about behaviour or an accident they may have been responsible for?

'What me guvnor?' 'never saw nowt'...and they probably didn't in many cases.

Why do some people behave the way they do?

As unfriendly as it sounds humans as a whole are very much like sheep. We have the ability to rationalize but it is often dormant as people watching bears out.

Another answer to this question is: because they can.

I put great stock into the theory that our environments have an influence on our behaviour. Let's take a look at how our society is governed for a moment. We have lots of laws don't we that as children are simplified by our parents as representing rights and wrongs (forgive my apparent naivety). Some laws and regulations [the potentially dangerous cycling on a pavement for instance] are flouted at a rate which in some cases become irrelevant merely down to lack of enforcement as opposed to right and wrong. But should someone casually going about their business on a footpath walk into a cyclist and get badly hurt how does the case now proceed?

Do we have clear boundaries and are they worth keeping up? Apparently not it would seem. A thug can burgle someone's home and end up the injured party in the eyes of the law? Is a law that regularly punishes the easy targets [supposed speeding motorists allegedly 1mph over the limit as opposed to wreckless drivers evading police] and defends repeat multiple offenders at great cost a good example of a just and fair society? Not if you are the one pulled up when not actually speeding or the one regularly burgled in a neglected neighbourhood (a few of those around I hear people murmuring). Why if ignorance is no defence for our mistakes can MP's simultaneously make mistakes for claiming large amounts of our money for their personal comfort without legal investigation upon discovery.

In such an environment people are less likely to respect the law and consequently each other. Just my opinion but one based upon much experience, observation and thinking.

And where is God, could God be, during all of this?

However, playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, circumstances play a big part in our lives and we often have no control over them however good we are. Accidents do happen. But God's presence withstanding, much can be prevented by humans with a little common sense (where did that go?).

Clearly you are someone considerate of others, as you say, you weren't that close but close enough to this relative to feel human! Being a good person doesn't help us handled it very much. When we are grieving it only takes a few honest, profound kind words about our loved ones to know that a person has compassion, it shines through and is priceless. I certain do appreciate it. I have the strong sense you do so let's focus on the positives amongst people in general as that is the best we can do.

There's none of us can choose all the people we want or don't want in this world, we have to take what's thrown at us and how much of it, the most important thing to me is how we handle it and some times it doesn't appear possible that we can. This is why I believe in being a supportive person. There has often been no one there for me and it's not a position I wish anyone else to go through. But when there has been someone there it makes the world of difference. Sites such as this are an enormous help in this respect and I bow to those with the sight to come up with it, thank you.

I hope that our ponderings may give you something positive in dealing with this question.

Unfortunately though I am only human so:

"Wheres the justice?"

I honestly don't know!

1) Perhaps nasty people get more because they need more whereas good people are more easily satisfied (seven deadly sins territory).
2) Perhaps the way around the second question, which I too feel arises from the first, is: should we be compassionate to everyone, forgive transgressors or as is my thinking, be more conditional. For me if someone acts purely out of selfishness, malice, cruelty etc then my thoughts will turn to the victim and any surviving family and friends. I'm suddenly less interested in understanding why a particular act was committed than I am in managing it but that is much easier said looking on than it is when we are right in the middle of it. Where it is calculated this is particularly difficult to ignore or stop vengeful thoughts. Personally I believe in looking after number one AND bothering about people who bother about others but I can be cold and distant to certain individuals once I figure out their game.

I think you are very strong person to be able to think rationally at such a time I hope my response at least does you justice.

Kind regards with sadness at your loss,
CT
 
unlucky

unlucky

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Twilight (I can't say Celtic because I'm a big Rangers fan!!:p), thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my ponderings with such a considered and well thought out response.
I'm also agnostic, I don't like to denounce religion out of hand, just in case!! And I suppose I know that even if there is some sort of higher being, hes got a lot bigger problems to be dealing with in this crazy world!! I suppose I wouldn't be human if I didn't think of the injustices in the world and the way I'm feeling at the moment with my increasingly selfish depression every injustice feels like a personal slight to me.
When I'm feeling a bit better I'm going to do some serious reading into philosophy and the like to try to get a better understanding though I suppose in some cases ignorance really is bliss, if I've got even more to ponder about my head may possibly explode!!
I know what you mean about the compassion shown on this forum, theres been days when I know I'd have been a lot worse if I hadn't had the odd kind word or two from people on here and I do my best to offer a kind word or any support I can when I'm able to do so.
Again thanks for your reply and I may go into it in more detail when my heads not as fuzzy!!:hug:
 
guggy

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Very sad indeed. These things make me wonder if there is indeed a grand plan behind all life events or if they just happen at random, without any sort of purpose whatsoever. So far I am unconvinced. My condolences for the loss of your cousin.
 
S

sajnis

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Ive just found out my 17 year old half cousin has been killed in a car crash, I really hardly knew him but its got me thinking. He worked hard, didn't drink or take drugs and didn't harm anyone and this has happened. Why in general does this happen? There ar so may arseholes out there who've bullied, abused and neglected all their lifes and in the most part they could jump in a river and come out with a salmon in their mouth and that only good things happen to. Or at least this is my experience. I've never hurt a fly in my life, I've always been there for anyone who needs help, I've not abused my body and here I am, so f***ed up I can't even leave the house on my own.

I suppose I've got 2 questions here, one is for anyone who is religious, if there is some sort of higher power why is it that the nasty people get more.
The second is, is it really worth being a nice person all your life?? I'm bringing my daughter up to be kind and compassionate to others but should I really be telling her to look after number one and not bother about anyone else??

And I'm not being all salf pitying, I just would like other peoples opinions on this.
Here's a theory. Many testimonies from Near-death experiences mention you get to create you own life, basically choosing your own challenges. Maybe he choose to die young, because that incarnation was meant to be temporary. He, having learned what he came to do, then reincarnate into his next life.

Or maybe there is no planning. No karma. Maybe it only happened because he look in the wrong direction for a second, a faulty break, whatever. Humans sometimes see grand purpose in everything, even something as an accident. Chaos, after all, is a fundamental force of the Multiverses.

If people believe one conscious entity is responsible for everything, including the horrible things, I'd suggest you stop worshiping it. It's mean.

If we, however, as immortal spirits reincarnate to learn from the challenges this world possess, then there is nothing good to do but learn as live as much as you can. Death, in my view, is neither negative nor permanent. Death is merely the stepping stone to the next incarnation. In life I suppose you'd fill in the pleasant things you lacked in your now previous lif:e.
I, for one, intend to reincarnate as a sexually promiscuous female. :D

Even better, I've even heard of spirits planning pleasant encounters with their long-time friends, and give them opportunities to do good to someone they wronged in their last life. If you need to meet him again, I'm sure you will. Naturally, I could be as wrong as the other religions. ;)
 
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T

Twylight

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I read stories like this and struggle to believe in a God

Then I switch on the news and 150 thousand have died in an earthquake in Haiti
Perhaps there is a God, but has less power than many give him credit for ?
Perhaps God needs our help
 
A

Apotheosis

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Here's a theory. Many testimonies from Near-death experiences mention you get to create you own life, basically choosing your own challenges. Maybe he choose to die young, because that incarnation was meant to be temporary. He, having learned what he came to do, then reincarnate into his next life.

Or maybe there is no planning. No karma. Maybe it only happened because he look in the wrong direction for a second, a faulty break, whatever. Humans sometimes see grand purpose in everything, even something as an accident. Chaos, after all, is a fundamental force of the Multiverses.
I think that there is truth in both perspectives.

Like free will & destiny - I think we have both.
 
R

rasselas

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...

if there is a god then everything is as it should be. energy cannot be destroyed. our bodies are constantly collecting from the environement, to hold ourselves together. all is in flux. just like everything else, that process is finite. it's worth thinking about death. and it's worth preparing for it. or emboldening against it. especially as most people witness other deaths before their own.

i am now going to get back to woking on my coffin design in photoshop. i just added some headphones but i need to get the positioning right.
 
A

Apotheosis

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Have you allowed room for the CD multi changer, 50" plasma, foot spa, coffee maker & Gaming laptop?
 
S

sajnis

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I think that there is truth in both perspectives.

Like free will & destiny - I think we have both.
Agreed. Traditional Aristolian logic divides statements into True or False. Recent developments in science (particularly Quantum Physics), have clearly show that the universe does not operate with those parameters. Two things can be equally true at the same time.

There is no reason to assume there would be an "external" God. We are God. On the most basic level of reality, there is only one point. Only one source of energy. Only one. This is what we mistakenly refer to as "God" (in my humble opinion).
 
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