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Voices in music.

M

Mind

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Joined
Aug 27, 2009
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3
Hello.

I have to weigh up a really difficult situation involving hearing voices, can anyone help? I'll try and describe the problem in it's simplest form at first. I am a musician and have dedicated the best part of 15 years to writing and engineering music, but for the past 10 years or so I've found that I am constantly hearing abusive voices in the music I write and listen to.

Though I hear these voices in all forms of music they're most prominent in the type of music I write (if you can call it music) which is Drum and Bass. Drum and Bass is mostly instrumental music and it's production is based heavily around experimental sound design, this places more of an emphasis on sound engineering than traditional music writing (ie notes). Currently most of the basslines and melodies in "Drum and Bass" are designed using synthesizers that are made specifically for the purpose of creating sounds that are very vocal like, the resulting sounds are likely to contain many formant and Phonetic like qualities. (understanding this last sentence is key to understanding a big part of my problem) so if you have any questions please ask and I'll try and answer as best I can, but for now I'll just give you an example of formants and phonetics in music.

[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/u9e9UtvunhE&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/u9e9UtvunhE&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

Formants are the Vowel sounds that are created naturally during speech - (a,e,i,o,u) these can easily be created using synthesizers and other types of music technology such as voice synth's and vowel/formant filters, the video I've posted above is a good example what they can sound like. Add to this other elements of Phonetics like rhythms used in speech or punctuation that in fact are often emulated (even unknowingly) by musicians using percussion instruments or percussion artists like drummers and you can very easily trick the mind in to thinking it's hearing actual speech, as apposed to musical instruments, for example with rhythms that are found in speech, a drummer may "Punctuate" a musical phrase using his kick drum, Snare drum, Cymbal or any other percussion instrument he may choose to use, ironically drums also contain vowel like characteristics, for example a wood block could contain a lot of the frequencies associated with the "O" vowel or a snare drum might contain some of the frequencies associated with the "A" vowel etc etc and so too can the rhythms in music be matched very closely to the rhythms and syllables used in speech. The point is that formant and other similar phonetic sounds are present in all forms of music and sound in one form or another and can now be manipulated very precisely, in fact modern music production relies on these techniques very heavily as a way of getting our attention, because the human mind listens for and assigns meaning to sounds that posses vocal like qualities.

[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gzH5Wuebel0&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gzH5Wuebel0&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

My problem is why has my mind chosen to associate abusiveness to these sounds???? I don't know if you can imagine how frustrating this problem is for me but some of you who are music lovers might be able to sympathize, imagine if out of your entire music collection, you could only actually bare to listen to 5 tracks and that listening to any of the rest of them would send you in to deep fear and psychosis, now you have a rough idea of the severity of my problem. Sadly most of my time in the studio is spent not writing music, not being creative but instead constantly trying to remove these kinds of sounds from my work, which I'm also at the same time finding very offensive to listen to, in fact this takes up so much of my time and has ruined so many pieces of my music that in the last ten years I have only actually managed to complete something like 5 tracks.

That was the simple part, from here on in this post is going to become quite complex. The immediate dilemma here is this: if I chose to take my doctors advice, I should be on medication, sounds simple, but it's not, why?

For two reason, 1 Doctors are not trained in music or the use of music technology, without this knowledge there's no way that they can know to what extent they are treating a psychological disorder or what might easily be simply a change in recent fashions in music (I doubt they're up to date on their Drum and Bass listening) and neither can I trust them to have correctly understood what I'm talking about, you may think this is an over reaction but!! This is my mind on the line here, they're talking about prescribing medication that will permanently change the chemical makeup of my brain for the sole purpose of altering the way that I perceive sound and music, I can assure you that this is an extremely frightening concept for me, especially as they have absolutely no understanding of what musicians and other producers in the Drum an bass industry are capable of.

[YOUTUBE]
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/b2z9Y-0Dh_4&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/b2z9Y-0Dh_4&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

My expierience of music is probably very very different to theirs, music has moved on, it's not all about Simon and Garfunkel or Mozart and Beethoven, at least not for me, you know?

At the moment I am about prepared to let them do (whatever). I still mistrust their judgments though, and the truth is I hate the whole process of being psychologically evaluated by people who for all I know hate the music I love and probably look upon me as being just some drug crazed Drum and Bass Gangster. (Which I not)

Now you know a bit more about music technology, it's effects on the human mind and how it can be used, the truth is that the techniques I've outlined above can actually be very dangerous in the wrong hands (Like the hands of a Drum and Bass producer). The human mind can become very quickly fatigued when trying to make sense out of sounds it can't understand, Imagine staring closely at lots of very bright multi colored lights for an hour, you can imagine the effects it would have on your senses, in some people it could induce epileptic fits, seizures, hallucinations etc your ears are exactly the same, in fact our conscious and unconscious minds are very susceptible to stimulation from sound possibly even more so than with sight for the simple reason that we can close our eye's should we want to but we can not do so with our ears. It's a well known fact that repetitive rhythms can relax the mind and put it in to a trance like state, what people don't realize is that sounds continue to influence your thought process whilst your unconscious, in fact whilst in this relaxed state our awareness and natural defenses drop and our thought processes become very open to suggestion, this is how many hypnotherapists work. It's obvious to me how a combination of this kind of music technology and psychology could easily be misused, it's also something that scares me a great deal.

My work as a sound engineer lead me in to more of the "underground" areas of the music industry. I've done my fair share of stupid things and upset the wrong people many times, I have been attacked and harrased, I didn't always know exactly who I was dealing with there is a possibility that what's happening with my music could be the result of harassment, (I know it sounds paranoid) but, this could be possibly a hacker committing a "Cyber type" crime, I certainly know I have worked with a lot of people in the past who have enough personal grudges against me to want my career ruined (which this has), I can think of more than a few people who could want to torment me in this way simply for their own kicks. I've also known a lot of people in the past (like myself) who have the knowledge and capability to commit acts of hacking, abuse technology, or misuse their skills for this kind of purpose. The difficulty I have is assessing that, It's something else I have to reach a conclusion with my Psychiatrist about which isn't going to be very easy to do. . .

This has been going on for many many years now, I'm really at my wits end, the doctors I've seen have been less than helpful, many of them completely ignorant of the dangers there are in society today, I'm very fearful and I have very few people to turn to and a lot to worry about.
 
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A

Apotheosis

Guest
Hi & Welcome to the Forum.

Your post makes perfect sense to me, & I do understand your concerns.

Can I ask if you take, or have ever taken street drugs?

Some of my own story - I started getting into the dance scene at the time of acid house, which changed into the rave scene; & I was into a lot of trance type stuff - but the earlier stuff - not a lot of the later trance music. I ended my days in the scene listening to a lot of drum & bass. I was raised with a very musical parent, & with a lot of different musical influences. I have always had a very wide interest in different types of music & musical tastes. As a teenager, although listening to a lot of dance, I also listed to a lot of metal & rock, & a lot of 70's & 80's stuff. I don't tend to go out much any more, & haven't for years, & my main interest now for listening pleasure is classical music. I have listened to rap a lot over the years as well, & I still play that a lot too. I prefer the 80's/early 90's rap stuff. Some music has had a profound effect on mental states that I have been in; especially some trance music, Wu-Tang, Pink Floyd & the Orb, among others.

For 17 years I was very much in the drug/crime scene. & throughout all those years I also suffered with MH difficulties (4 sections & numerous breakdowns, medication). I was very much into E, Cannabis, & hallucinogenics, & developed a daily coke habit, as well doing a lot of drinking. For 8 years now I have been away for that scene, & I no longer take drugs. In the year before I got clean, I was clubbing a lot listening to drum & bass, & listening to it a lot during the day. Listening to the music used to put me in some powerful altered states, & used to put me back into full recall of drugged states. So even days after I had been out my mind - the music would take me back there. I had to stop listening to it in the end. I do think that drum & bass is a progressive & interesting music form. But for me personally; nothing now compares to the depth, richness, & calmness of classic music; by the Old Masters.

I am aware of the paranoia that I used to get when in the drug/crime/music scene - I still know a lot of people in that scene today; & many of them are not well. The people I know most effected are younger people. I do not have the same reactions to all this stuff - because it is no longer 'my world'. The best thing I ever did was to stop taking drugs.

Drugs aside - some of us appear to be far more sensitive than others. Some of us appear to have an increased awareness of pattern recognition & in seeing complexity. I used to draw & paint things all the time. I see things others don't - I don't necessarily mean in a hallucinatory sense - but in 'seeing' complexity & patterns where other people can't. The majority of people are not, I would think, very aware of how their consciousness is being effected by & altered by music - they just like the way they feel; & it is simply a 'buzz', most people do not analyse these things at depth, or go into introspective, self searching & contemplative states - to the degree that some others do.

We are all different, & some people appear to be very comfortable, & in fact appear to thrive in crime/drug/seedy scenes & situations. Others of us don't; & I have been hit a few times in the past, with the sudden horror of the situations/people I have been involved with.

This sensitivity, pattern recognition, seeing complexity, & hyper awareness - can often lead to stress reactions, being overwhelmed, & at an extreme end paranoia, fear, & picking up on many things that most others do not see. I think that this happens a lot with some of the experiences & forms of mental states labelled as madness. But is it madness? I do understand your criticism of psychiatry & your apprehensions with medication. I share them. When I was sectioned/labelled/medicated - nothing of my environmental, social, addiction, stress or any other influence or circumstance was taking into account. It was simply assumed that my brain wasn't working properly. The meds have suppressed & blanked out some of the finer aspects of my creativity, & I no longer hardly paint at all. I am hoping at some stage (long term) to get med free again.

This is a dilemma that some of us face - MH difficulties are highly complex issues. Some people appear to understand the complexity of them better than others. There is, to my understanding; no either/or solutions, nor a single reason for the difficulties. In my own life, I haven't found a solution with orthodox psychiatry & mainstream medicine - far from it, in fact I have opposed it, & sought help from wherever I can find it; outside of the mainstream.

Can I ask what age you are?

I know a guy in his 50's, who spent his life in the music industry, was very well off, got heavily into drugs, especially cocaine, numerous marriages & a jet set lifestyle. His entire life collapsed around him, & he now lives a very low key life. He is not well off, & he works as an alternative healer. He has never been happier.

Sometimes we need to make radical changes to our lives, & sometimes situations & experiences radically alter the course of our lives. Things happen that are often totally beyond our control; & the best that we can do is simply to choose how we react to them, & ride with them.

I don't know what to specifically suggest. There is the perspective that a medication can help; & this depends on how people cope, severity of symptoms, & balancing the potential benefits of a med, with how bad you feel. There are different approaches that we can take to things.

I've personally dealt with stuff, by removing myself from certain scenes, avoiding certain situations & too much stress, & trying to live as quiet & peaceful a life as possible. I also originally moved area, broke contact with a lot of people; & sought out as much alternative help as I could find. I haven't found a perfect solution, & whatever we do; we will always get a certain amount of shit to deal with.

Just that I wouldn't rule stuff out. It sounds like you are intelligent & talented. & even if it means making some potential radical changes - then maybe it is best to put your health first, & make those changes? A lot would depend on how you intuitively feel about things; the level at which you can deal with what is going on, & subjectively how well/ill you feel.

I hope that something of that can help.
 
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Wendy

Wendy

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My O/H listens to techno and psy-trance and goes into depth about it.
It all sounds like the same record allnight.
 
M

Mind

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Aug 27, 2009
Messages
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I does agree.

Just tell him you don't like trance, you like Electro or something better ;)

Deadelus is pretty nice.

[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/kRJ2YvRv3N4&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kRJ2YvRv3N4&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

My GF likes Electroconductor.

http://www.electroconductor.com/
 
W

whiteeagle

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Sep 16, 2009
Messages
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Location
Yorkshire, England
I read something a long time ago in a psychology book about perceptions that there is a tendency for people to recognise familiar forms in unstructured or semi-structured sensory input. Apparently it can happen with any kind of sensory information. An example of this would be seeing faces in woodchip wallpaper, which a lot of people have experienced.

In my experience a similar thing happens if you look at a stone for a long period of time, recognisable forms appear in it. In this latter example I found that it seemed to be a way for the mind to reveal things that were already subconsciously known, old memories, reminders of forthcoming birthdays, things like that.

I also wondered if your long exposure to music might have caused some slight eardrum damage. My understanding is that it is quite common for this to result in some auditory effect. In the extreme, people who become deaf sometimes start hearing things.

I also think overwork might also be a contributory factor, particularly if this is adversely affecting your sleeping patterns. And if you are working in a studio and not getting enough sunlight from day to day, this might contribute to the effect as well. I just mention it because all these kinds of circumstances applied to me when I began to hear voices, and in experimenting I've found that they seem to be relevant.

I have had the abusiveness as well. I don't think it has any particular significance or meaning. I think its probably just an exaggeration of previous, perhaps long forgotten, put-downs that have left some residual conflict at a subconscious level that has been burried and hidden as a protective measure and then rises to the surface in a new form.
 
M

Mind

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Thanks white eagle, your post has helped me look see things from a different angle, I'm % 75 sure that these voices are a result of the conditions you've outlined ie stress, fatigue, hearing damage etc and also more than likely (psychosis of some kind). However there are still other factors that I'm concerned about and it's these issues that I'm finding most difficult to resolve, some of the people that I've been involved with in the past and the criminal sides of the music industry are very dangerous and that's not something that's ever been addressed by any of my support workers.

Drum and Bass is a hostile form of music, in the UK it's very closely associated with gangs, it's a very aggressive side of the industry in general, the music itself often can contain threats, or glorify violent behavior. It would be perfectly feasible that a D&B Producer or engineer could lace this kind of abusive content in to their music, using found sounds, samples, MC's or voice synths, formant filters etc etc. As I've already pointed out there has been a massive move towards experimental sound design within the D&B Genre, mostly orientated around these kinds of vocal like sounds. Much of the equipment used in D&B production is designed specifically for the purpose of adding vocal qualities for example Audio Filters such as the Low pass filter are perhaps the most commonly used tool in today's music production and are used more prolifically in Drum and Bass than in any other form of music, many of these filters are designed specifically to emulate vocal characteristics, such as fowel filters etc. Voice synths also (as above).the Vocoder for instance (it's name is in fact derived from the words Voice/Encoder) it was originally designed (not as a musical instrument) but as a voice encryption device, to allow people to securely send and receive messages over phone lines.

You would have a very hard job convincing me that these types of audio tools would not the ideal tools to use for the propose of harassment, because they in fact are perfectly suited to that purpose ie - they disguise the human voice making it impossible for a victim or authority to trace. in fact most Drum and Bass music is pretty much untraceable to a specific studio, it's a largely unregulated genre of music. %99 of the artists producing Drum and Bass are unidentifiable, using Pseudonyms specifically for the purpose of avoiding "Legal issues" such as copyright. On top of that, rivalry between artists is not uncommon, rival soundsystems, DJ's MC's Producers and artists (though not so common now) can become embroiled in "Sound clashes" as they are more commonly known.

Speaking as someone who has already been a victim of organized crime within the music industry, (I have been harassed and attacked) you'd have a hard job convincing me that this kind of (For want of a better word) - "Cyber Harassment" is something I should just instantly rule out simply on the grounds that I have mental health issue's. You may feel that it's unlikely that this kind of harassment could occur, (This is the attitude that my Psychiatric doctors have adopted). What most people fail to take in to account here is that people with mental heath problems (like myself) are actually far more likely to encounter harassment and or put themselves in dangerous situations than other "normal" people would do in the course of their everyday lives and or work etc.

The people within the industry that I have worked with are (without question) very dangerous, and are involved to a large degree in organized crime, I'm at a loss as to what to do from here, I've contacted an organization that provides counseling to victims of Cyber harassment, they said there simply were no laws governing this kind of harassment as it is technically covered by the "pier to pier" file sharing laws within the UK. Most other organizations such as victim support have no experience of this kind of crime whatsoever. Again Support workers (Psychiatric doctors, social workers, outreach workers etc etc) will also likely have (Zero) experience in music technology, the music industry, (Or the organized crimes that occur within in it). So I find myself slipping through the net here so to speak, I'm unable to find adequate support, sure I can obtain some counseling, Psychiatric care and medication, however the stress of even having to set out all these factors and points to even the most open minded of support workers is absolutely unbearable, each worker will already have come to their own conclusion long before they have even heard all the fact's, each of them blissfully un aware of the holes in their own knowledge regarding such things as technological crime, harassment etc. A Psychiatric doctor will instantly conclude that I'm describing a mental health issue, a victim support worker will conclude the opposite that in fact victims of crimes like harassment and violent attacks etc are often likely to be driven in to paranoia and even psychosis (Which I agree I suffer from) This fact alone (the fact that I now suffer from Psychosis) is not sufficient enough proof to ascertain whether a crime is being committed or not, it just makes it a lot more difficult for me to prove that these are genuine issues that need to be addressed (By them) ie by support workers as genuine crimes.

Like I said, I'm 75% sure what I'm experiencing is simply Psychosis or perhaps even something like epilepsy, however the complexity of my issues makes thing's very unclear and after something like 10 years of psychiatric treatment (on and off) I'm still no closer to having made any headway or even gained much in the way of an understanding from my Psychiatric doctors, the medication they've put me on (imo) is more often than not designed to remove patients like myself further away from reality and that's not helped me at all, in fact it's made things a lot worse, in one instance a prescription lead me to attempt suicide (Which left me physically scarred) . . that was Seroxat.

I cant say I exactly trust them.
 
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W

whiteeagle

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Messages
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Location
Yorkshire, England
Speaking as someone who has already been a victim of organized crime within the music industry, (I have been harassed and attacked) you'd have a hard job convincing me that this kind of (For want of a better word) - "Cyber Harassment" is something I should just instantly rule out simply on the grounds that I have mental health issue's.

A Psychiatric doctor will instantly conclude that I'm describing a mental health issue, a victim support worker will conclude the opposite that in fact victims of crimes like harassment and violent attacks etc are often likely to be driven in to paranoia and even psychosis (Which I agree I suffer from) This fact alone (the fact that I now suffer from Psychosis) is not sufficient enough proof to ascertain whether a crime is being committed or not, it just makes it a lot more difficult for me to prove that these are genuine issues that need to be addressed (By them) ie by support workers as genuine crimes.
I recognise your experience. In my experience the psychriatrists look for an illness and build a myth around that that fits with the diagnosis. The implication being that the patient is faulty and the exhaustion etc. are a consequence of that. Whereas for me it was the other way round, that I didn't hear voices until after I worked long hours, was exhausted and experienced noise for a long period. When I mentioned prolonged exposure to 'white noise' the psychiatrist looked at me as if this was some psychotic invention and prevented me from checking it out.When I did subsequently check it out it is a known phenomena called the 'Gestalt effect'. The statements that they made about what I believe were unrecognisable to me.

However, the voices I heard also built myths and absolutely everything I care about was threatened by them. So it appears to me that at some deep unnoticed level the other side of caring about something is a fear of it being threatened, and this is what the voices play on. But the methods the voices use appear to reflect a common human experience that arises from any control (including abuse and violence) exercised or attempted to be exercised over a person. Enough personal knowledge to indicate a possibility of something only prompts the voices to focus attention on that.

But statistically what the voices threaten is usually highly unlikely. If we turn it the other way up, we can see that it is appropriate to treat the voices/paranoia as a pointer to make little adjustments which rectify the balance and not be persuaded by what the voices say. For example, the voices I heard threatened my children. I didn't mention that to anyone. I just asked my children whether they kept their doors locked and alarms on, and advised that they would be safer if they did.

Perhaps the other thing is to improve your own conditions and not to work too hard or spend too much time with the same kind of music. But to self-nurture a little and have a bit more variety and fun in your life.

IMHO, realistically, if your concerns are well-founded there is little or nothing you can do about it because those controlling and negative forces that you are aware can exist are just too strong for one individual to oppose, and noone will take what you say seriously. Its easier to let it go, strengthen yourself and get comfortable and then if subsequently an opportunity arises you will be in a better position to do a little toward addressing the problem.

IMHO, Everyone is a little paranoid to some degree, because personal experiences engender feelings and knowledge about specific things that are a more emphasised than is 'normal' for other people. It's kind of like, we have different components to reality, including a common component and an individual component. And perceptions of experience often get bent and reinterpretted to fit in with the pre-existing perceived reality and are used as a basis to justify behaviours and even excessive control over another. And the paranoia can be a reflection of that effect that in itself being amplified and exaggerated. But an individual can choose to accept the way things are for them at the moment are just so - they can't be better or worse than they are. And from there we can go on to make appropriate changes and thread things together to gently evolve that reality into something better.

IMHO, whatever you would like to see improved, there is no responsibility to tackle anything else until you have a sense of well-being and are appropriately self-protected and nurtured. Upon achieving a that you become free to do whatever you like. And from what you've written it would appear that you care about other people and that's great. But there is no rush. And it's fine to ask for help if you need it from people who will help you, but stay well away from people who make things worse for you. Draw your own appropriate personal boundaries.
 
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