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Voice of God verses voice of schizophrenia

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Kelly2017

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Hi Sikatriz

Let me just say that I believe in heaven and anyone who chooses to go there is accepted. I also believe religions are overrated and not much makes sense within them. Too much hogwash. I believe what I feel in my heart, my soul, where the truth comes from. The voices are liars and try to confuse you as you talk about many religions and each one has many different stipulations in order to get to heaven. Either you choose heaven or you don't. It is our own choice. I believe if we don't believe in a highest source of good...love or God, then you become lost and don't know where to go when it's time. You may end up in "limbo." I also believe that there are spiritual levels and if you are not so nice of a person in your life, you enter heaven at a very low level...which I believe is where the voices that cause torment end up. Also, I have to say that I strongly agree with Kerome's comment regarding believing wholeheartedly in what the voices tell you is dangerous because it truly is. I kindly say you sound very confused about religion and don't really sound sure of what you should believe because the voices have thrown everything they can at you with regards to religion. You have probably thought about religion and had many questions about it which is what fuels their fire. Make up your own mind, on your own. You will be much better off for it even if you don't have all the answers you want. Thank you for allowing me to share my opinions with you.
 
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backagain2

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I just want to say that I am shocked by how many people can't imagine a God that wishes harm on at least some people. Maybe it's just because I'm a schizophrenic and I imagine telepathically talking to spirits in the spirit world who were members of many different religions and all these voices in my head seem to think that I have sinned in a past life so I must be tortured by them. When I get a headache, I can see thoughts that look like fireballs flow into my head. I see planes of energy touch my head right before I get the kind of panic attack where my heart starts racing. And I always hear the voices. They claim they're doing these tortures. I know I can't convince anybody with a pithy reply in this thread, but these voices have solid reasoning. They have convinced me that I've definitely had past lives. And God has commanded to torture me because I sinned in past lives. Anyway, I'm just surprised that most of you can't imagine a God that exacts torture on those who might deserve it.
Hi Sikatriz,
If you believe in God, schizophrenia is a separate thing. Your God doesn't want to torture you, what kind of god would he be if he did. I saw the headaches too not a fireball but I knew that they are brought on by situations. Its like visibly seeing how others were effecting me or with you how "the voices" are making you feel. You might have lived a past life, I don't know but I know that this isn't happening to me because of any sin that I have made in my lifetime. Others have killed people and do not get tortured because of their sins. It's our schizophrenia that is torturous hell, not us.
 
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sikatriz

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Sikatriz, I have to say I disagree with all that. First of all the existence of a vengeful god - almost everything you read in the bible is suspect, the authors did not know what a psychosis was and so could not clearly distinguish the religious experience from a psychotic one. Second the ideas of heaven and hell - these are man-made, the only real heaven and hell are the ones our minds construct for us, during this life and afterwards. The afterlife is not so different from a dream, both are things made by our minds.

You seem to feel that God is punishing you for your sins. In my opinion that's a delusion, there are influences that your voices represent, but it is not God. It is a dangerous thing to wholeheartedly believe what the voices tell you, and it's even more unkind to inflict this vision on others. I think Kelly2017 has a pretty decent grasp of the situation.
I agree that modern-day science lends us a better understanding of psychosis and that people in biblical times had a weak understanding of how the mind works. But their experiences matter to me. Sure, some of them may have been delusional. Jesus may have been the biggest schizophrenic of all time as he believed he was God himself. But the fact is that religious experiences still happen even with our present understanding of psychology and mental health. There are people who don't have schizophrenia -- normal, average people -- who have religious experiences. Now some people think that anybody who has a religious experiences is crazy somehow (schizophrenic or not). I'm on the other extreme: Even schizophrenic religious experiences are genuine contact with a Higher Power.

That heaven and hell are man-made is an opinion, not a fact. You should acknowledge your own bias. Also, your idea of an afterlife being a dream is not a fact. No one knows what happens when we die. And ultimately, there's no way for me to be certain that I've had past lives and am in a cycle of rebirth. But I have to ask myself why God would let me wholeheartedly believe that if it wasn't true.

It could be that I'm delusional for feeling that God is punishing me for my sins just like a normal, average Christian with no mental illness could also be delusional for thinking God talks to him when he prays. There's no way to know for certain. My voices could indeed come from God himself. That is my religion and I hope you respect that or at least acknowledge it. I value respect for religious diversity. It's not dangerous to believe what the voices tell you unless the voices are trying to convince you to harm yourself or others. I don't harm myself. My schizophrenia is torture, though. God is allowing that torture. Why?

I'm not pushing my beliefs on others. Just expressing them hoping someone might find hope amidst schizophrenic torture. It helps me to believe that I might be reincarnated as someone with no mental illness. But until then I have to cope with the fact that schizophrenia is a lifelong diagnosis for me.
 
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sikatriz

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Hi Sikatriz,
If you believe in God, schizophrenia is a separate thing.
My dad always tells me I have to keep science and religion separate. For example, I have a strong interest in creationist pseudoscience and the philosophical theory of intelligent design. He tries to preach the big bang theory and evolution from his half-Catholic, half-Atheist pulpit.

I don't separate truths. Truth is truth. And my schizophrenic religious experiences are just as genuine communion with a Higher Power as non-schizophrenic religious experiences.

Your God doesn't want to torture you, what kind of god would he be if he did.
God IS allowing me to experience torture. That's a fact. He's doing nothing to intervene and heal me from my schizophrenia like Jesus supposedly did when he "healed" people with "evil spirits." What kind of God is he for allowing such torture? I can believe that he is an apathetic masochist who lets random people arbitrarily get tortured. I'd rather believe that he is a god of justice and that I deserve my torture for some reason. The voices have given me solid arguments for the idea that I sinned in past lives.

Others have killed people and do not get tortured because of their sins.
Because God doesn't want people to see his intervention, he delays their torture until a subsequent life. It's much easier for God to insert their soul into someone genetically predisposed to schizophrenia than it is to send a ball of fire from the sky to burn them for their sin. But some do have to go to prison for their crimes. Regardless, they will be tortured in their next lives per my religion.
 
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sikatriz

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Make up your own mind, on your own. You will be much better off for it even if you don't have all the answers you want. Thank you for allowing me to share my opinions with you.
Thank you for intelligently asserting your beliefs. My weakness is that I want all the answers NOW! But trust me, I've given this a lot of thought. I feel I have made up my mind to the best of my ability. Cheers.
 
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I agree that modern-day science lends us a better understanding of psychosis and that people in biblical times had a weak understanding of how the mind works. But their experiences matter to me. Sure, some of them may have been delusional. Jesus may have been the biggest schizophrenic of all time as he believed he was God himself. But the fact is that religious experiences still happen even with our present understanding of psychology and mental health. There are people who don't have schizophrenia -- normal, average people -- who have religious experiences. Now some people think that anybody who has a religious experiences is crazy somehow (schizophrenic or not). I'm on the other extreme: Even schizophrenic religious experiences are genuine contact with a Higher Power.
Indeed & from a broader perspective (imo) applies to all religions, mythology, philosophy, spirituality - mystical experience / non-ordinary states.

A Brief History of Everything by Ken Wilber is an interesting read -

Ken Wilber - Wikipedia
 
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Jesus may have been the biggest schizophrenic of all time as he believed he was God himself.
If there is some truth to the story, then Jeshua / Christ was possibly the greatest Gnostic, Mystic, Shaman, 'White' Magician, Enlightened Individual to have walked the Earth.

There are correlations as to what comes under the psychoses / schizophrenia, with mystical / shamanic experience - But the mystic is Not mad, & the shaman has healed himself. There are differences.

Anton Boisen is worth a read as well - He wrote 'Exploration of the Inner World', about psychosis & religious transformation.

Anton Boisen - Wikipedia

The Exploration Of The Inner World ( Anton T. Boisen) : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Quite a few people have written about psychosis / schizophrenia & religious transformation / healing.

Another is 'In the Fellowship of His Suffering: A Theological Interpretation of Mental Illness with a Focus on "Schizophrenia"' by Elahe Hessamfar

Swedenborg -

Wilson Van Dusen: The Presence of Spirits in Madness

The Link Between Psychic Ability, Schizophrenia and Psychosis | The Weiler Psi

Spirituality and Narrative in Psychiatric Practice

There's loads of this material out there - i have also posted a lot about it all in the spirituality, psychology & schizophrenia sections of this forum.
 
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Kelly2017

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Hi Sakritz
Yes, we live in an instant world so I can understand wanting answers now. Unfortunately, you are seeking answers from a place that doesn't have them. The truth to your answers comes from deep within, not the voices. With all the confusion that has been instilled it will be hard to decipher, but if you keep at it, the truth will prevail. Off to work now, but I wish you an enjoyable day. Peace to you.
 
Kerome

Kerome

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I agree that modern-day science lends us a better understanding of psychosis and that people in biblical times had a weak understanding of how the mind works.
Well even in ancient times there were people who understood the working of the mind better than the ancient Jews. If you were to undertake a brief study of Buddhist and other ancient Indian philosophy it might surprise you how current and relevant it still is today.

But the fact is that religious experiences still happen even with our present understanding of psychology and mental health. ... I'm on the other extreme: Even schizophrenic religious experiences are genuine contact with a Higher Power.
It is true that there are still religious experiences, but I think we have a much better grasp now of what is truely spiritual in nature and what is just delusional. Anything that displays the hallmarks of paranoia, personal fears or desires, conspiracies, or is related to the popular media such as sci-fi is pretty certain to be delusional. If you use that lens to examine the bible, you'll find that a very large proportion of all the supernatural events described therein seem to be deluded and psychotic. Even mainstream religious concepts appearing in a psychosis are likely to be borrowed - you'll find many Jesus'es on closed wards.

I agree with you that *some* psychotic experiences seem to indicate contact with a spiritual entity of some sort. I don't call them 'higher powers' because if you compare their minds to ours, they are often inferior in understanding and emotive life, although they are more capable in their realm than we are. Many of them are closer to idiot savants than fully capable minds.

That heaven and hell are man-made is an opinion, not a fact. You should acknowledge your own bias. Also, your idea of an afterlife being a dream is not a fact.
It is my opinion, which coincides with the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. Also the concepts of heaven and hell can be traced through ancient literature - for example the Greeks and Romans believed in an underworld where all souls went, not separate existences for good or bad souls. Heaven and hell seem to be an invention of the writers of the bible, and so very likely man made.

My voices could indeed come from God himself. That is my religion and I hope you respect that or at least acknowledge it. I value respect for religious diversity.
My experience of voices, personally and what I've read and seen others go though, indicates that they are changeable and fickle at best as an interface to god, and that you'd have a better path to spiritual growth through other avenues. I'd strongly advise against making voices part of your religious beliefs.

It's not dangerous to believe what the voices tell you unless the voices are trying to convince you to harm yourself or others. I don't harm myself.
That is very debateable. My experience is that a lot of voices are born of personal trauma, and some of the spiritual ones are parasites that feed off the human aura which just manifest as voices. It is not healthy.

My schizophrenia is torture, though. God is allowing that torture. Why?
Why did God give Hitler the impulse to gas 6 million Jews? God does not seem to concern himself very much with even the large scale events on earth, much less what happens to individual people. In my experience voices like to masquerade as god in order to use our beliefs against us, and it's not good to place much trust in them. The idea that you can talk to an all-powerful god and that he listens is a fairy tale, imho.
 
BrianHorlicks

BrianHorlicks

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@ immortality.
I like your post,
And I have a few questions,
Does your voice know knowledge you've never read in books?
Does your voice know events before they happen?
 
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sikatriz

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Well even in ancient times there were people who understood the working of the mind better than the ancient Jews. If you were to undertake a brief study of Buddhist and other ancient Indian philosophy it might surprise you how current and relevant it still is today.
I sense an antagonism towards Abrahamic religions. I'm curious to know your opinions on Islam and the prophet Mohamed as well as on Mormonism and their prophets.

Anything that displays the hallmarks of paranoia, personal fears or desires, conspiracies, or is related to the popular media such as sci-fi is pretty certain to be delusional.
Anything that displays antagonism towards a certain religious tradition or people is also pretty certain to be delusional. You acknowledge that even before the advent of modern psychology there were religious traditions that understood quite well how the mind works but you don't include the ancient Jews. I submit that you are displaying such an antagonism.

Why did God give Hitler the impulse to gas 6 million Jews? God does not seem to concern himself very much with even the large scale events on earth, much less what happens to individual people.
That is sort of the point I was trying to make. God lets bad things happen. He doesn't want to intervene against physical laws of nature or even emotional laws of human desire. But I don't believe that God gave Hitler the impulse to slaughter so many Jews. You are definitely not an anti-Semitist. I hope my previous comments don't lead you to believe that I am claiming such. Some people might think I'm anti-Semitist though because I believe that Jews who were slaughtered by Hitler with cruel and unusual methods may have sinned in previous lives. In the Old Testament, God always warns his people that if they sin they will be delivered to the buffetings of Babylon, Satan, etc. I don't think there's any danger in believing this, though. I pity the Jews who had to die under Nazi oppression. And I donate to Jewish charities. Please don't think I'm an anti-Semitist.
 
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God lets bad things happen.
There are so many different conceptions of God / the Divine - so many religions, sects, denominations, so many mythologies, cosmologies, systems etc.

i don't think that any of them are right - None of them are any better than badly drawn sketches, & yet we have the Age Old arguments about who / what is right / wrong. It's silly.

All of them are human created - all of them are fingers pointing to the moon. We are all on an individual journey.

At least science - Quantum / Astrophysics etc is based on actual observation & evidence, & has a potential for a clearer picture.
 
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sikatriz

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There are so many different conceptions of God / the Divine - so many religions, sects, denominations, so many mythologies, cosmologies, systems etc.

i don't think that any of them are right - None of them are any better than badly drawn sketches, & yet we have the Age Old arguments about who / what is right / wrong. It's silly.

All of them are human created - all of them are fingers pointing to the moon. We are all on an individual journey.

At least science - Quantum / Astrophysics etc is based on actual observation & evidence, & has a potential for a clearer picture.
I believe ALL religions are right. Even the religions of schizophrenics with only one follower. But anything with over a million followers is definitely true.

While we are all on an individual journey by ourselves, we are also travelling as a group when we bond with people with similar beliefs. Ecumenical movements further progress the unity of our journey. There is only one truth.

Eventually, science will reveal the nature of spirits. But we still don't know what neutrinos are! So that's far in the future.
 
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I believe ALL religions are right. Even the religions of schizophrenics with only one follower. But anything with over a million followers is definitely true.

While we are all on an individual journey by ourselves, we are also travelling as a group when we bond with people with similar beliefs. Ecumenical movements further progress the unity of our journey. There is only one truth.

Eventually, science will reveal the nature of spirits. But we still don't know what neutrinos are! So that's far in the future.
i do respect your opinion but i don't really agree. i think that the full nature / extent of reality is largely beyond the conception of the human condition.

In a very general / loose sense of comparative religion / the perennial philosophy, the wisdom of Masters, possibly there is some very rough sketch of things, But that's it imo.
 
Kerome

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I sense an antagonism towards Abrahamic religions. I'm curious to know your opinions on Islam and the prophet Mohamed as well as on Mormonism and their prophets.
My grandparents were quite strict Christians, but I have to say my own inclinations are not in that direction. I find relatively little actual personal truth in the holy books of the Abrahamic religions, and the fact that they are faith-based and run off obedience to priesthoods also does not inspire me. I view them as largely damaging to people's clarity of mind. However, that does not mean they hold no value at all for other people, it is still an outlet for people's religious impulse.

Anything that displays antagonism towards a certain religious tradition or people is also pretty certain to be delusional.
Not so, in my opinion! There are many valid criticisms of the world's religious traditions, one at a time or all at once. It's an essential component of free speech to be able to discuss the pros and cons of religion in an open forum. It's also important to test religion's claims against rational, logical thought.

That is sort of the point I was trying to make. God lets bad things happen. He doesn't want to intervene against physical laws of nature or even emotional laws of human desire.
So, let's take the case where voices are generated by internal trauma and our own minds, so in a way by our emotions and the laws that govern them. Perhaps god chooses to do nothing against the voices because of that - they are a component of a free-willed being?

I don't think you are an anti-semitist :)
 
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