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The totally arbitrary nature of prioritizing empathy as a human-defining trait

H

Hokiepokie

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The answer is that people are mostly emotionally driven, and their interactions with other people are mutually emotionally based. The realization that a person lacks a fundamental part of normal emotional makeup makes most people recoil from that person as being unable to fulfil the role of a human being according to this majority truth.

GretaVon, I know that what you are saying is true. Conceptually, I can see it's true, but it's very difficult for me to internalize when you are talking about mutual emotions and emotionally driven, etc.
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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GretaVon, I know that what you are saying is true. Conceptually, I can see it's true, but it's very difficult for me to internalize when you are talking about mutual emotions and emotionally driven, etc.

Yes indeedy. This emotional dimension is missing from this class of people, but they can partly make up for it by cognitive means.

This is actually a way to spot these characters, narcs and psychs.

In certain situations, normals recognize instinctively and immidiately what is going on with an odd remark or something like that. The narcs pause while they figure out cognitively what's going on.
 
T E_90

T E_90

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I agree with you 100%. It's still a battle for me. I've done well and pretty much have been able to beat it, but it's still a battle. What has helped me with consequences is practice. What I'm getting at is........I practice nearly with every action I take about the consequences of doing simple things in life that aren't related to getting in trouble or good or bad. For example, I get in my car and I have to go to the grocery store. I ALWAYS think about the how and why of going. Meaning, why am I going to this store and which route will I take and what about another route that is the same distance? Obviously, the above route or which grocery store I go to doesn't matter very much, but its the HABIT of thinking about consequences before I do a major action. When you do this time and time and time again over and over and over for the little non-consequental things, you are very well prepared at this and it has become a habit for the time where you have that moral dilema type situation, commit a crime, harm another person by my words, etc. I then am able to NOT do the bad stuff based on the habit of practicing consequences for all of the other little non-consequental things that lead up to the game changing moral-behavioral event that can go either way.

After the above is done and the habit is there to do choose wisely and choose right over wrong, I have actually started to "CARE" about doing right. Now, do I care as much as a normal person? I absolutely do not, but I do care SOME, and it's the some that has grown from the starting point of None many years ago, and it's based on practicing good habits.
I find great you can do this, is practically a cognitive behavioral self therapy created by your willpower.
Since the last time you advised me, this is what I'm applying too, only I'm just getting started and it takes practice.
I've also had to go to therapy for some unresolved issues from the past that they are slowing me down.
I always appreciate your help man, thanks for the advice and keep it up
 
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IDontCare99

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If you called people with autism or down syndrome etc. subhuman monsters chances are you would be called out and shamed by society on a collective level.

The same things can be said about people with ASPD/NPD with minimal backlash.

What is it about empathy that is seen as so "human" as opposed to other traits, such that someone who is literally missing chromosomes MUST be referred to as fully human or you are a disgusting bastard yet it is socially acceptable to speak about empathy as if it is the central defining trait of humanity and claim those who lack it are literal subhumans?

The answer is simple, most humans are almost 100% irrational and herd-driven. They don't even see the double/false standard at play and only get so protective over other disabilities because society only just recently decided thats what you should do.
I've often wondered that.
 
H

Hokiepokie

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I find great you can do this, is practically a cognitive behavioral self therapy created by your willpower.
Since the last time you advised me, this is what I'm applying too, only I'm just getting started and it takes practice.
I've also had to go to therapy for some unresolved issues from the past that they are slowing me down.
I always appreciate your help man, thanks for the advice and keep it up
Sure thing dude
 
MollyBloom

MollyBloom

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I find great you can do this, is practically a cognitive behavioral self therapy created by your willpower.
Since the last time you advised me, this is what I'm applying too, only I'm just getting started and it takes practice.
I've also had to go to therapy for some unresolved issues from the past that they are slowing me down.
I always appreciate your help man, thanks for the advice and keep it up

T_E It’s about being effective which I apply to tackle my BPD behaviour and is learnt in the DBT program.

Being effective is about being fully aware of the consequences of your acts as ineffective and acting properly on it in order to be effective. I give you some examples of my life to get the picture.

When I felt very down in the past, I needed alcohol to feel better to relief this depressed feeling. But the consequences were often worse after the quick relief. I was starting to feel melancholic, posted idiot things on FB, slept awfully afterwards and was tired and grumpy at work, sometimes a hangover but most important, the depressed feeling returned after the alcohol. Conclusion: drinking alcohol to tackle feeling down was not effective and therefore I stopped drinking when feeling down. The result at the long run, was much better. Being effective was much better. Drinking alcohol was ineffective Nd I worked in a more effective way on my issues instead of drinking.

2nd example: I always told myself to pay a bill later because I had no time, I wasn’t in the mood, didn’t fancy to open my computer to log in or I didn’t have the money because I had already spent it on something more fanciful. Result: added fees on unpaid bills, letters of bailiffs, more stress, more depression, more self-loathing. Conclusion: my behaviour wasn’t effective. I have changed that because I wanted to be effective and avoid the consequence. Nowadays I pay my bills immediately and I only buy something fanciful when I am sure I’ve got the money.

3rd: when I was in traffic behind a fool, I could erupt into a major temper and explode by honking, shouting and showing my middle finger. Was this behaviour effective? No! My temper didn’t change anything. I was suddenly in a agitated state of mind, this idiot was still driving like an idiot and often slowing more down to bully me and the delay of five minutes wasn’t after all not that bad. The agitation wasn’t worth it. Conclusion: my temper wasn’t effective. Being effective was to remain calm and having patience.

You can apply being effective on lots of issues. Therefore CBT will work for you. Enjoy your Sunday!
 
morpheus01

morpheus01

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It's because people honour themselves with their morals.
 
I

IDontCare99

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The problem is, people will only empathize with people who have gone through what they have, because there is an understanding there. This is why people stay in clicks most of their lives.
 
T E_90

T E_90

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T_E It’s about being effective which I apply to tackle my BPD behaviour and is learnt in the DBT program.

Being effective is about being fully aware of the consequences of your acts as ineffective and acting properly on it in order to be effective. I give you some examples of my life to get the picture.

When I felt very down in the past, I needed alcohol to feel better to relief this depressed feeling. But the consequences were often worse after the quick relief. I was starting to feel melancholic, posted idiot things on FB, slept awfully afterwards and was tired and grumpy at work, sometimes a hangover but most important, the depressed feeling returned after the alcohol. Conclusion: drinking alcohol to tackle feeling down was not effective and therefore I stopped drinking when feeling down. The result at the long run, was much better. Being effective was much better. Drinking alcohol was ineffective Nd I worked in a more effective way on my issues instead of drinking.

2nd example: I always told myself to pay a bill later because I had no time, I wasn’t in the mood, didn’t fancy to open my computer to log in or I didn’t have the money because I had already spent it on something more fanciful. Result: added fees on unpaid bills, letters of bailiffs, more stress, more depression, more self-loathing. Conclusion: my behaviour wasn’t effective. I have changed that because I wanted to be effective and avoid the consequence. Nowadays I pay my bills immediately and I only buy something fanciful when I am sure I’ve got the money.

3rd: when I was in traffic behind a fool, I could erupt into a major temper and explode by honking, shouting and showing my middle finger. Was this behaviour effective? No! My temper didn’t change anything. I was suddenly in a agitated state of mind, this idiot was still driving like an idiot and often slowing more down to bully me and the delay of five minutes wasn’t after all not that bad. The agitation wasn’t worth it. Conclusion: my temper wasn’t effective. Being effective was to remain calm and having patience.

You can apply being effective on lots of issues. Therefore CBT will work for you. Enjoy your Sunday!
I can see how much effort this behavior changes has cost you, and I'm glad you managed to make it work and improve your life.
I agree that alcohol in general can make things worse, especially if you are prone to anger.
The strength of spirit to instantly think about the consequences is what I'm missing (and the fact that I don't give a damn about the consequences that this could have on others makes it even more difficult).

An example that still haunts me, is the fact that I haven't been able to carry out a revenge against a person who has recently given me problems.
In my mind, a month later, I had everything already planned out, (since I don't forgive nor forget easily) but the reason I didn't act is simply discovering that this would bring economic benefits to that person.
And I still think I would have acted smoothly and the probability of this being successful was probably 90%.
Thinking about the possible consequences doesn't touch me in the least.
It's the same problem I have when I find myself in some fights, I act on impulse not giving a damn about possible consequences.
In my mind there cannot be, since I'm always right and the other person usually deserves it.
What I'm trying to train myself to do is thinking the classic 'to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction'.
Apparently for some reason, that doesn't compute in my brain.
Honest to God, sometimes it really is a challenge to stay in control, by trying to preserve myself from some consequence.
I know that CBT is what I need, and that's what, like you, I'm starting to practice (at least trying to).
I don't expect any differences just now, but if that can help preserve myself, I'm ready to make the effort.
Thank you for sharing your experiences on this, I always appreciate your imputs.
 
T E_90

T E_90

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The problem is, people will only empathize with people who have gone through what they have, because there is an understanding there. This is why people stay in clicks most of their lives.
You're right there, even though I only empathize with one person in my life and animals.
That's the best I can get to.
If it happens someone has the same problems as mine, that makes it easier of course, but never totally as many, as soon as I turn around I've already forgotten, it slips away quickly, as well as anything that could bring remorse and second thoughts to other people.
The only thing that doesn't slip away so easily unfortunately, is anything that angers me.
In my youth it also took me a while to understand what empathy was, I've always felt confused about certain emotional reactions I saw in others.
 
I

IDontCare99

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"An example that still haunts me, is the fact that I haven't been able to carry out a revenge against a person who has recently given me problems."

Same here.
 
I

IDontCare99

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"An example that still haunts me, is the fact that I haven't been able to carry out a revenge against a person who has recently given me problems."

Same here.
And what happened was really really really bad...It's not a "person", but I'll go with person(s)...maybe an organization...or something bigger.

Who knows?
 
LoqLamp

LoqLamp

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I imagine most narcs and osychs are just people with
Yes indeedy. This emotional dimension is missing from this class of people, but they can partly make up for it by cognitive means.

This is actually a way to spot these characters, narcs and psychs.

In certain situations, normals recognize instinctively and immidiately what is going on with an odd remark or something like that. The narcs pause while they figure out cognitively what's going on.
How many have you met? They are supposed to be rare after all. It’s more likely you ran into people with low emotional intelligence.
 
I

IDontCare99

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One thing I know is that people are committing suicide and other things because of something this "organization" did, and using citizens to do it.

But that's none of my business.
 
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IDontCare99

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And now they are still doing it, and people are okay with it...that's none of my business either.
 
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