The NHS simply make people worse

J

JasonR28

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#1
Now here in the UK we simply have to deal with the NHS when it comes to health. What an absolute shambles.....

So ok... a 10 minute appointment to explain what is likely years of mental health problems.

A GP is NEVER fully qualified in MH. They have a remote understanding of most things but not a fully detailed understanding. It's always very generic with them:

Anxiety = CBT
Depression = Meds

It's that black and white to a GP. As we all know, it's not one solution fits all but in that 10 or 20 minute (max) appointment, as soon as the GP hears what they believe to be anxiety, depression or whatever else, they have an exact outcome in their heads, no matter how different to the norm or complex the patients health is.


So, ok, CBT. Although the therapist works for the NHS, they work isolated to the GP, the services aren't linked. A therapist basically gets notification from their boss that they have to see a certain patient for CBT and that is their job.

In essence, an NHS therapist who you would expect to have a large understanding, are there to do that 1 job only.... Provide CBT. They are not allowed to and wont diagnose. They won't stop therapy if they can see it's not relevant for the patient. They have to go through with the whole CBT programme. If they didn't they would be taken into the office by their boss and heavily questioned.

If CBT hasn't worked for the patient, they then fabricate a report making it seem positive and like something was gained from it, rather than say how it didn't help someone.

Yes I use the word "fabricate" because it's true. If a therapist mentions how it didn't work, they are heavily questioned by their boss because those figures go to a central database which can alter funding. So yeah, it's better for them to make out it worked fine.


Now upon discharge, with the patient having made no progress, the patient's only resource is going back to their GP.


Due to how notes are written, the GP has it on record that the patient has made great progress and so must be better.


What leg does the patient have to stand on? Telling a GP that the therapist they saw has lied and the report is incorrect? Even if the GP has an inkling that the patient is correct, they will never agree with the patient because agreeing with them means accepting liability. Instead it's the patient who is blamed for being mistaken or if they felt it didn't help them, then they didn't try hard enough. This discourages a patient from seeking help again, even in the future no matter how bad things get.


If a patient is 'lucky' enough by chance to get referred to a CMHT or mental health nurse, well, in a lot of areas, good luck. Often is the case that unless a patient is hallucinating and really out of it, there's nothing.

Pretty much to them it's either the patient is severely unwell with hallucinations and hearing voices or.... Perfectly fine and no health problems at all. There's no middle ground especially if that person can explain their health problems and/or goes their alone.


Which, after the time and effort of getting help, not only is the patient back to square one (no help, next port of call is their GP), but, they now have 'stains' on their record, playing down their health problems, making the GP think that patient is of good health.

Which.... Then makes that 10, maybe 20 minute appointment even harder for a patient to get the right help because after all, the patient is fine and had CBT which was a great success, so what is the patient moaning about?


Which......... Makes it even harder for the patient to see their GP at all. Lumps somewhere on the body? Pains somewhere the pain shouldn't be? 'Nah, no point. My biggest pain is mental health problems. I can't go there to a GP surgery to talk about something which although could be serious, is nothing compared to the pain and suffering mental health problems cause every second of every day. I can't just go there knowing my suffering and pain, but have to smile and pretend it's not a thing as I talk about some silly lump or pain that is much milder than anything mental health problems cause me'.

Only 1 issue can be discussed per appointment. It's like saying to someone with a ruptured spleen and in complete agony that they have to go to the GP, but in the 10 minute appointment have to pretend the pain isn't there, hide it, cover it all up and talk about a tiny pimple on their foot.
 
SomersetScorpio

SomersetScorpio

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#2
I agree with what you're saying.
I think things have got worse as well and there's just not the resources for people to be properly cared for any more.
 
J

JasonR28

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#3
Absolutely. Plus combined with the way the services are with staff who can't/wont ever take responsibility.

If a MH staff member has got it wrong, which quite often they do, everything is done by them to avoid consequences, from making out the patient is fine to saying treatment was successful.

A bit like how if an NHS staff member swore at one of us, they aren't exactly going to note it on a patient's records saying "I called him/her a......". Instead the patient would have to log the complaint with PALS who are notorious for always siding with NHS staff. At best they interview that staff member and it will be as simple as "He/she said you called them a..... Did you?". Staff will always say they didn't to avoid being in trouble, even if they remember that incident. PALS then claim the patient must have misheard
 
sadpunchingbag

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#4
in my experience the last 6 years have been hell the nhs is piss poor when it comes to dealing with the mentally ill all they want to do is hand you some anti depressants
 
R

ramboghettouk

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#6
i doubt the us with it's lack of a nhs is better however, particularly if your mental health issues have created poverty, and i'm no fan of nhs mental health quite the opposite in fact

at the moment the nhs is going through a crisis cynical me thinks it's the torys underfunding it so there will be a lot of complaints then peoples love of the nhs will disapear and it'll be privatised

the only help i get is repeat prescriptions and i wonder if psychotherapy could help. think they're medicating poverty on top of the actual illness

last 2 times i saw the gp it was a 2 hr wait after the appt time sitting in a crowded sirgery by myself, as one psychiatrist said one thing he undoubtedly suffers from is extreme social anxiety

pointless asking the gp to refer me they just refer me back, i was hoping if i had someoone to go with me but i haven't
 
R

ramboghettouk

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#7
i don't think the nhs offers anything but drugs, i was with my friend whose an ex social worker she said your looking well, i said i hope not i've got my benefit interview tue she said cognitive therapy wouldn't work with you

when i was referred they said his ambivalence about getting better makes it imposssible to find a focus for therapy,

it's the nhs on drug better i'm ambivalent about it's not a real fit for work better
 
J

JasonR28

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#8
Certainly there are funding cuts but often that just means it's more of a wait to get access to certain services. A lot of services do exist but it's that old chestnut of them branding CBT and meds as the miracle cure.

If someone goes to an appointment alone (as they perhaps have nobody else) then it's assumed they can't be that bad. Often though, that person has gone desperate for help and it was a struggle for them to go.

Over time, people learn what sort of help would benefit them via a lot of research (forums, contacting MH charities, even the NHS website itself). After all, we are suffering each day, we want to find out what could help us. People are often deprived of that help though because GP's and MH teams would rather give someone more CBT and meds.

Being deprived of the right help just makes someones mental health worse....

It's a bit like if someone has a broken leg, they know it will need an operation or a cast, but doctors refuse and instead tell someone to just go home, take a few painkillers and do a bit of exercise. They have to go on suffering needlessly.

Same battle with mental health where the suffering also starts to include frustration at being deprived of that right help. Knowing that they could provide the necessary help, but they just wont.


It always will result in poverty in the end, because if someone is struggling with MH and are unable to work, they have to live off ESA/PIP benefits. With no NHS help to get better, they have to continue to live off benefits. It could easily swing the other way at one assessment and all money get's stopped, leaving someone with nothing.
 
R

ramboghettouk

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#9
they don't beleive severe mental illness is treatable so why waste resources. less severe mental illness may be worth treating, theres very little evidence for a treatment for schitzoprenia, people don't get better occassionally they turn out to be mistaken diagnoseses they never had it in the first place, whether laing had much sucess as well, medication allows functioning outside an institution but not much else

pills are much cheaper than psychotherapy that may just cost a lot and achieve little
 
pepecat

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#10
Have to say I had really good treatment on the NHS (eventually) about eight years ago. Don't know what it would be like if I was trying to get that again now.
 
fazza

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#11
I really believe it depends in what area you live in equals the quality or funding available to each trust.
I was refered to cmht in 2009. 2 weeks later I had my appointment a long assessment with a consultant. I have a care plan which has just been changed to an extended care plan (not sure what that w.hat the difference is)

I see my CPN once a fortnight but during times off illness this goes up to 3 times per week.

My GP is fantastic and always asks me about my mental health when I go in for my physical health needs.

My meds get reviewed every 3 months and I can see my consultant on request (usually 1 weeks notice).

Things have gone wrong though. Notes have been lost and fax's not sent to gp's but on the whole I cannot complain.
 
J

JasonR28

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#12
If they think it's too complex then they are wasting resources by making someone take a lesser treatment that clearly wont help?


I just had a thought. Typically with anxiety and other MH problems people hate themselves and so on.

Well, when it comes to me, I don't feel that way about myself, apart from when it comes to the NHS.

I hate myself for being so weak and pathetic that I couldn't speak up properly to them or stand up for myself. I hate that they twisted it all around and made it so bad for me that I was to weak and stupid to say "look, I'm sick of this, you have it wrong and if you don't take this into consideration, then I'm going to put in a complaint".

I hate myself for going to appointments and being a pathetic, worthless loser and letting the staff just walk all over me and fob me off.
 
R

ramboghettouk

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#13
theres not much you can do the mental health staff are in positions of power whereas your a lunatic and everything you say is suspect as marx said it's those in positions of power that define things
 
C

Chrisw321990

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#14
The NHS is over strench but it's just to complicated

Since 18/19 I have been in and out of oxleas trying to get help only to keep getting discharged and sent in circles

I have told them about the high rate bullying in school and the force sex expolited at school by another bully who became friendly which did truly screw my head up. He made the stuff fell so normal through being a friend then when I did not want to do it soreaded rumors saying I was gay.

I have been trying my hardest to get councelling as I have never been in a relationship as of it. I've been trying for years only to go to primary care and get told you have complex problems which are chronic and then discharged back to my GP.

I have given up trying to fix the broken as it's so hard to get anywhere. I'm still waiting to go by IAPT but I fell on my assessment they are going to say I'm to hard and say we can't help you

If they gave me councelling years ago who knows I could be working in a relationship but as they just seem to put me in the case like to hard to work with can't be asked

If I don't get help from IAPT I don't know what route to follow
 
R

ramboghettouk

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#15
yes i know theres not much coverage of such things but i can relate, guess when we were young at school bullying wasn't an issue and there wasn't much coverage of homosexuality in the facts of life lessons to know about sexual abuse

one psychiatrist said the kids had been sexually abused that that was why it was in their play, he wanted me to have sexual abuse councelling then a week later the royal society published it's guidelines on false memory syndrome and it wasn't mentioned again

there was a thing at the time about been sexually abused and not mentally ill, don't know where it got people sexual abuse still isn't fitness for work and my issue the requirement to prove illness for benefits

and thats the issue in the recovery model which is ignored
 
C

Chrisw321990

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#16
I just find it hard. I have seen many physcrists and they have all said I have anxiety

In 2018 one said he has serve anxiety with cathophic thinking says refused to go into school by yr8 and was doing half days by yr10. Symptoms occur on the background of ASD struggles with social cues among other things

In 2019

Says befriended by bully complied into sexually expolited but complied for friendship. He has some of the learning difficulties and social difficulties associated with nf1
Risk is high for self harm and his vulnerability to abuse as of the past

Then local MH trust says

History of maladaptive coping behaviours
History of being statmented
History of anxiety and depression
Struggled working as of poor social skills
I have very complex difficulties which are chronic linked to his traits of ASD
Discharge back to GP

So it's confusing as I'm sent everywhere the one at the local MH just brushed off the abuse and bullying and I don't know why I don't know if he focused on now or what
 
C

Chrisw321990

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#17
The thing he asked he wrote he told he does not fell happy or sad just normal

Another Dr wrote the same and said I said netural.

The thing is I've felt depressed for so long it fells normal but when I type it in Google people are saying it's emotional blunting in all my reports it states face expressions emotionless
 
R

ramboghettouk

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#18
i think the word is euthymic to describe neither high or low mood had that comment, i guess given limited resources what can they do, theres plenty of illnessses that claim better treatments that money can't provide unless you go private some families have mortgaged houses to pay for treatments for their loved ones that later are found ineffective
 
D

doogie

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#19
Absolutely. Plus combined with the way the services are with staff who can't/wont ever take responsibility.

If a MH staff member has got it wrong, which quite often they do, everything is done by them to avoid consequences, from making out the patient is fine to saying treatment was successful.

A bit like how if an NHS staff member swore at one of us, they aren't exactly going to note it on a patient's records saying "I called him/her a......". Instead the patient would have to log the complaint with PALS who are notorious for always siding with NHS staff. At best they interview that staff member and it will be as simple as "He/she said you called them a..... Did you?". Staff will always say they didn't to avoid being in trouble, even if they remember that incident. PALS then claim the patient must have misheard

Hi. Yes, my CPN mocked me in a characuturist way over and over while she left my home...…. basically taking the piss big style.....I reported it through the complaints service PALS (after trying to use their patient and liason service - which was a big joke) and it was like you said the CPN questioned said it would have been out of character for her top do that and that it was not true.

Makes you feel so confident in MH services when they are willing to make you, the mental health patient, question your own reality and feel helpless while they self govern and seek to fill their own needs over yours.
 
D

doogie

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#20
Now here in the UK we simply have to deal with the NHS when it comes to health. What an absolute shambles.....

So ok... a 10 minute appointment to explain what is likely years of mental health problems.

A GP is NEVER fully qualified in MH. They have a remote understanding of most things but not a fully detailed understanding. It's always very generic with them:

Anxiety = CBT
Depression = Meds

It's that black and white to a GP. As we all know, it's not one solution fits all but in that 10 or 20 minute (max) appointment, as soon as the GP hears what they believe to be anxiety, depression or whatever else, they have an exact outcome in their heads, no matter how different to the norm or complex the patients health is.


So, ok, CBT. Although the therapist works for the NHS, they work isolated to the GP, the services aren't linked. A therapist basically gets notification from their boss that they have to see a certain patient for CBT and that is their job.

In essence, an NHS therapist who you would expect to have a large understanding, are there to do that 1 job only.... Provide CBT. They are not allowed to and wont diagnose. They won't stop therapy if they can see it's not relevant for the patient. They have to go through with the whole CBT programme. If they didn't they would be taken into the office by their boss and heavily questioned.

If CBT hasn't worked for the patient, they then fabricate a report making it seem positive and like something was gained from it, rather than say how it didn't help someone.

Yes I use the word "fabricate" because it's true. If a therapist mentions how it didn't work, they are heavily questioned by their boss because those figures go to a central database which can alter funding. So yeah, it's better for them to make out it worked fine.


Now upon discharge, with the patient having made no progress, the patient's only resource is going back to their GP.


Due to how notes are written, the GP has it on record that the patient has made great progress and so must be better.


What leg does the patient have to stand on? Telling a GP that the therapist they saw has lied and the report is incorrect? Even if the GP has an inkling that the patient is correct, they will never agree with the patient because agreeing with them means accepting liability. Instead it's the patient who is blamed for being mistaken or if they felt it didn't help them, then they didn't try hard enough. This discourages a patient from seeking help again, even in the future no matter how bad things get.


If a patient is 'lucky' enough by chance to get referred to a CMHT or mental health nurse, well, in a lot of areas, good luck. Often is the case that unless a patient is hallucinating and really out of it, there's nothing.

Pretty much to them it's either the patient is severely unwell with hallucinations and hearing voices or.... Perfectly fine and no health problems at all. There's no middle ground especially if that person can explain their health problems and/or goes their alone.


Which, after the time and effort of getting help, not only is the patient back to square one (no help, next port of call is their GP), but, they now have 'stains' on their record, playing down their health problems, making the GP think that patient is of good health.

Which.... Then makes that 10, maybe 20 minute appointment even harder for a patient to get the right help because after all, the patient is fine and had CBT which was a great success, so what is the patient moaning about?


Which......... Makes it even harder for the patient to see their GP at all. Lumps somewhere on the body? Pains somewhere the pain shouldn't be? 'Nah, no point. My biggest pain is mental health problems. I can't go there to a GP surgery to talk about something which although could be serious, is nothing compared to the pain and suffering mental health problems cause every second of every day. I can't just go there knowing my suffering and pain, but have to smile and pretend it's not a thing as I talk about some silly lump or pain that is much milder than anything mental health problems cause me'.

Only 1 issue can be discussed per appointment. It's like saying to someone with a ruptured spleen and in complete agony that they have to go to the GP, but in the 10 minute appointment have to pretend the pain isn't there, hide it, cover it all up and talk about a tiny pimple on their foot.
 
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