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The drugs don't work

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Wonky

Guest
A

Apotheosis

Guest
I think the answer here is that the researcher is a psychologist. I think there is a covert war going on between psychologists and drug based psychiatry - the psychologists hate their patch being undermined by the biological model of mental illness.
That works both ways - Bio-medical/orthodox psychiatry & the pharmacological industry hates to be challenged by more holistic & comprehensive psychological approaches.

Who is right?

I think that things are highly individual & complex. Maybe some are best helped by psychological means & others by more bio-chemical ones? Or maybe a balance of both approaches is best?

It would be interesting I think to see what the results would be if people were treated with comprehensive psychological help & social support in genuinely healing, therapeutic & trustful environments.

Maybe the psychologists are right? & most people could be far better helped by predominately comprehensive psychological means. I for on, tend to agree with them.

Given that the Bio-Medical basis cannot be categorically proved & that it is very hard to prove psychological methods; then why are not both approaches given equal standing? & a multi-faceted approach not applied? I think that it's very sad that these 'alternative' methods are not more widely available & that most people don't have a choice.
 
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W

Wonky

Guest
That works both ways - Bio-medical/orthodox psychiatry & the pharmacological industry hates to be challenged by more holistic & comprehensive psychological approaches.

Who is right?

I think that things are highly individual & complex. Maybe some are best helped by psychological means & others by more bio-chemical ones? Or maybe a balance of both approaches is best?

It would be interesting I think to see what the results would be if people were treated with comprehensive psychological help & social support in genuinely healing, therapeutic & trustful environments.

Maybe the psychologists are right? & most people could be far better helped by predominately comprehensive psychological means. I for on, tend to agree with them.

Given that the Bio-Medical basis cannot be categorically proved & that it is very hard to prove psychological methods; then why are not both approaches given equal standing? & a multi-faceted approach not applied? I think that it's very sad that these 'alternative' methods are not more widely available & that most people don't have a choice.
Yeah, touche, Apotheosis!

Re. "Given that the Bio-Medical basis cannot be categorically proved & that it is very hard to prove psychological methods; then why are not both approaches given equal standing? & a multi-faceted approach not applied?" If you look at guidelines for things like depression and anxiety, then there is always BOTH psychotherapy and medication. It seems to me that psychotherapy has a very firm position in NHS services. I know that many people find difficulty in getting the psychotherapy, but that is a referring problem, i.e. reluctance by GPs to refer perhaps sometimes because they know the lengthy waiting lists.

I think you would like to see other types of psychological therapy available rather than the NHS standard Dynamic and CBT. There is CAT and Dalectic something Therapy (I can never remember the full name for that one!).

Things may be different for other types of mental illness, so perhaps it is these other illnesses you are thinking of.

Re. "I think that things are highly individual & complex. Maybe some are best helped by psychological means & others by more bio-chemical ones? Or maybe a balance of both approaches is best?" For me this the real crux of the issue. It seems to me that in NHS mental health services (probably because of lack of resources) there is virtually no room for the individual to find the path, the balance, that they feel is best for them.
 
A

Apotheosis

Guest
I think you would like to see other types of psychological therapy available rather than the NHS standard Dynamic and CBT. There is CAT and Dalectic something Therapy (I can never remember the full name for that one!).

Things may be different for other types of mental illness, so perhaps it is these other illnesses you are thinking of.
I would very much like to see comprehensive psychological therapeutic methods being used - of the Soteria House & Diabasis Type; very much based on Jungian & depth psychology. NHS methods do not include comprehensive psychological techniques - existing NHS methods, are in general very basic & ineffectual for any severe MH condition. There is also very little done to provide genuine social support. The types of therapy & healing approaches that I would like to have, & that I would like to see; do not exist on the NHS - nor are such approaches even acknowledged in relation to the treatment of severe mental illness.

The reality is that people are given meds (& not much else); in the case of severe MH issues - those medications are forced. This basis to general MH 'care' is IMO very very wrong; & constitutes a very severe injustice. It excludes everything else & denies all other methods. It is very fixed to a very narrow model. I really don't think that the issue is the cost of alternatives - not when you factor in the true costs of the present model - keeping people dependant & very often sick on a lifetime of meds. It would be far cheaper to provide 'alternative' help that actually helps people.

When you look at the multi billion pound pharmacology industry; [profit for sickness system] - then you see where the true motivation really lies. The psychiatric system cannot be based on genuine therapeutic healing - the evidence does not bear that out - it is a profit industry based on social control; & capitalistic, materialistic, & scientific reductionist paradigms & values.
 
A

Apotheosis

Guest
That is not to say that there are not many injustices in the World; & nor that the Bio-medical model does not have a place - as it does. Some people are I think best helped with medication; & maybe I am one of those people?

But my life story has been one of now having spent 2 decades trying my best to deal with severe MH issues. I don't feel that I have been helped; either by psychiatric services, or society. In fact I feel like a battle weary soldier that is about to lay down & die.

Who knows how my life could be now, if I had been properly helped? If I had been given proper social support; & genuine comprehensive psychological help? I very much doubt that I would be in the mess that I am now - living at the fringes of society, dependant on meds, & for so long having been in a socially excluded limbo land; living alone & single in social isolation & exclusion; dealing constantly with sleep problems, depression, anxiety, & all the other MH issues that I now have to live with on a daily basis. It isn't as simple for me as blaming it all on mental illness; it is too complex for that.

I have tired my best to use what has been available to find an 'alternative' & low to med free recovery - I have been up against too much; & there is far too little available help, of the type that I need & have looked for. A part of me has given up; this is my lot in life; it isn't my fault - what real choices did I have? I didn't choose to experience severely altered states, & I didn't choose to be bastardised by the MH system, I didn't choose to be forced & made dependant on meds; & made to be dependant on them the rest of my life - there was no free choice in any of this. & it sickens & angers me. What was I meant to do? What can I do now? It's all so fucked up.

At the exclusion of any proper or comprehensive help; I am going to ask the psychiatrist for a med increase & sleepers, & maybe anything else that he thinks would help. It's not really what I want; but I don't see what else I can do? I just want to forget about the pain, the struggle, the suffering. There are no other personally viable or accessible options.

The majority of people are not like me - the majority of people either don't see, or they are not interested in 'alternative' & more holistic methods of recovery. The majority of people are of the attitude that meds are the best that there is; & they embrace the orthodox psychiatric model. I can't not see what I do see in relation to these issues.
 
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Apotheosis

Guest
[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wkuVTfWP0PQ&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wkuVTfWP0PQ&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]​
 
F

firemonkee57

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Messages
8,235
I think the answer here is that the researcher is a psychologist. I think there is a covert war going on between psychologists and drug based psychiatry - the psychologists hate their patch being undermined by the biological model of mental illness.

Whenever I see a psychologist say that anti-depressants don't work, I always think, well he would say that wouldn't he!
Good point.
It's hard whether it be pro medical or pro therapy school of thought to know where the truth begins and where vested interests and agendas end.

Sometimes i wonder whether psychologists and psychiatrists prefer to egotistically engage in intellectual squabbles over actually helping their clients.
 
W

Wonky

Guest
I would very much like to see comprehensive psychological therapeutic methods being used - of the Soteria House & Diabasis Type; very much based on Jungian & depth psychology. NHS methods do not include comprehensive psychological techniques - existing NHS methods, are in general very basic & ineffectual for any severe MH condition. There is also very little done to provide genuine social support. The types of therapy & healing approaches that I would like to have, & that I would like to see; do not exist on the NHS - nor are such approaches even acknowledged in relation to the treatment of severe mental illness.

The reality is that people are given meds (& not much else); in the case of severe MH issues - those medications are forced. This basis to general MH 'care' is IMO very very wrong; & constitutes a very severe injustice. It excludes everything else & denies all other methods. It is very fixed to a very narrow model. I really don't think that the issue is the cost of alternatives - not when you factor in the true costs of the present model - keeping people dependant & very often sick on a lifetime of meds. It would be far cheaper to provide 'alternative' help that actually helps people.

When you look at the multi billion pound pharmacology industry; [profit for sickness system] - then you see where the true motivation really lies. The psychiatric system cannot be based on genuine therapeutic healing - the evidence does not bear that out - it is a profit industry based on social control; & capitalistic, materialistic, & scientific reductionist paradigms & values.
Now I see where you are coming from, Apotheosis.

I think it is rather difficult on a site like this - you have a full range of MH problems represented here and I can not help but think that different MH problems mean different experiences and different difficulties.

I can't help feeling that MH services are now focussed on the acute and the severe - drugging the acute until they are well enough to be sent back to the GP, and just drugging up the severe ad nauseum.

This thing about CTOs - does anyone know why there have been so many more than predicted? Is it because psychiatrists have latched onto them as a way of keeping people with severe illness drugged up? Is that because that is all the psychiatrists can do in the system as it stands to try to keep these people from relapse?

It is all box-ticking and rationing, isn't it?
 
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