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Suicidal Because Ugly (Male)

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Thiswaythatway

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2019
Messages
100
Location
Uk
It seems the way you present here may colour some people's opinion that it is your mental health that could be the problem. In all fairness to everyone here who has attempted to tackle your problem from a mental health point of view, this IS a mental health forum dude!!

So, its a very difficult situation you pose. You have not as far as i can see said that YOU believe yourself to be ugly, its that women find you ugly. Logically people will then assume its a personality, presentation issue. This is a fuzzy area as far as your explanation goes.

You have fixated (it seems) on tinder as the proper arbiter of looks and attractiveness and repeatedly stood by it as being accurate (potential mental health problem in ltself). You have however gone on to accept it is rigged in favour of paid users and the algorithms have a level of sophistication which is good in a way but also might allude to an unhealthy obsession.

You have taken on a protective, closed stance on the accuracy of your first post and given zero quarter despite what it seems to me many kind folk offering the best advice they can. Is ridged thinking a mental health area?

It seems you want people to agree with your assessment of things, which is a completely unreasonable thing to expect in an area that may well have plagued others here. I know how it feels to want everyone to say "yes dude, you are as ugly as sin" but at the same time know how utterly devastating and self destructive that desire is. You have mentioned self destruction a couple of times and even if you are terribly ugly that is absolutely a mental health issue as it suggests its the only thing that makes you being alive a worthwhile thing and at your very admission you have a worthwhile life and clearly value yourself.

So if your ugliness is making you want to die, ending your existence forever, destroying the potential for you to do good, to succeed, making your friends suffer your loss, which simply does not go away when someone commits suicide then we HAVE to conclude the main issue is mental health based even though you are ugly. So therapy may be of use even if it is only to help you deal better with your ugliness.
 
S

SpoonySpoon

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2019
Messages
19
Location
UK
No one has said they dont believe you.
No one has assumed they know you better than you.
No one is twisting your words.
No one is making assumptions.
These are all your perceptions, that us why I believe you would benefit from therapy.
This site is for people to express their opinions, share their experiences, and advise if people ask. That is all that has happened here. We are trying to help you. If this is upsetting or triggering for you maybe sharing your vulnerabilities on a forum isn't best for you? Private messaging may be more helpful? It is easy to feel 'attacked' on a thread. The amount of responses,people giving their opinions and help, in my opinion, just shows how much we all care about you ♡ we know how you feel. Challenging my thoughts and perceptions was VERY difficult for me when I was younger, but being truly honest with myself is the best way for me to recover. I have just been trying to share that idea with you, but I suck at communicating.
So, I'm not going to bring up previous quotes from you personally in this thread, I'm just going to gesture wildly and hope that is enough. Pretty much from the outset your replies have been disbelieving of things I've said, and even just a few posts ago assuming you know better (referring to the "he thinks it's external but actually it's internal").

It's an "Occam's Razor" situation: the idea that with a complex problem, the simplest explanation is almost always the correct one. So you have a person who is viewed as physically unattractive by others, many expressing such views with exacting clarity, who never gets a match based on his photos, has women openly shuddering at his appearance, one who has never had a girlfriend, and your go-to explanation is.... "well he must be projecting his insecurities on people!"?

I do not feel upset or triggered, just mildly inconvenienced that as much as I'm trying to communicate my experiences, it's getting second guessed at every turn as "must be something else". If people won't believe in the premise my issue is based on, we're never going to have a productive discussion: I don't believe in ghosts, and if you asked me for advice with a ghost problem, we would not be able to have a decent discussion about it.

It seems the way you present here may colour some people's opinion that it is your mental health that could be the problem. In all fairness to everyone here who has attempted to tackle your problem from a mental health point of view, this IS a mental health forum dude!!
So, the mental health issue is a symptom, the cause is being unwanted by women. It's not a vicious circle, it's a pretty straight line.

So, its a very difficult situation you pose. You have not as far as i can see said that YOU believe yourself to be ugly, its that women find you ugly. Logically people will then assume its a personality, presentation issue. This is a fuzzy area as far as your explanation goes.
To be honest, what I 'feel' doesn't really seem to matter in terms of dating. Overall I think I'm in the ballpark of 'normal' but obviously some days will be more or less so. Please, if something is unclear I'm happy to answer questions, I'd really rather that then people jumping to conclusions.

You have fixated (it seems) on tinder as the proper arbiter of looks and attractiveness and repeatedly stood by it as being accurate (potential mental health problem in ltself). You have however gone on to accept it is rigged in favour of paid users and the algorithms have a level of sophistication which is good in a way but also might allude to an unhealthy obsession.
I'm not fixated, but I use it as an example because it seems to be the least-messy one. I can talk about the times I get rejected in bars & clubs, but then I get the "that's where you're going wrong, no 22 year old ever met a girl in a bar!" or I can talk about the times I've gone speed dating (a place where woman have literally paid money to find a date) and got 100% rejection, but then I get the "must be something you said!" excuse. So in comes Tinder, a system that completely removes: race, class, wealth, religion, confidence, accent etc, and boils it down to a binary "are you attractive?" and the overwhelming answer is "no". Seriously, even two days ago I got my first Tinder match in months, and it was literally someone who matched with me, messaged me to call me ugly and then unmatched. But I tell that story here and people say "well it must be because you're not confident enough!" or some other BS. As far as the stuff with algorithms goes, like most self-respecting millenials, I have googled "how to get more matches on Tinder" and fell into the explanation of how the deck is stacked, so that I may play it better.

You have taken on a protective, closed stance on the accuracy of your first post and given zero quarter despite what it seems to me many kind folk offering the best advice they can. Is ridged thinking a mental health area?
You may call it rigid thinking if you like, but I know I am correct in my experiences, but apparently when I try to express those experiences to other people, they try to retroactively reframe them as something else. To use a quote from Mad Men, "People tell us who they are, and we ignore it, because we want them to be who we want them to be." I will tell a friend with absolute clarity that I feel low because a woman called me ugly, and my friend will re-frame it as "don't worry about her, you'll find The One eventually!": now, I've never expressed an interest in finding "The One", but my friend did, and it made her happy, so naturally she wants the same thing for me, even though I have no interest in it.

It seems you want people to agree with your assessment of things, which is a completely unreasonable thing to expect in an area that may well have plagued others here. I know how it feels to want everyone to say "yes dude, you are as ugly as sin" but at the same time know how utterly devastating and self destructive that desire is. You have mentioned self destruction a couple of times and even if you are terribly ugly that is absolutely a mental health issue as it suggests its the only thing that makes you being alive a worthwhile thing and at your very admission you have a worthwhile life and clearly value yourself.

So if your ugliness is making you want to die, ending your existence forever, destroying the potential for you to do good, to succeed, making your friends suffer your loss, which simply does not go away when someone commits suicide then we HAVE to conclude the main issue is mental health based even though you are ugly. So therapy may be of use even if it is only to help you deal better with your ugliness.
It's difficult to explain. The thoughts about killing myself do not come from a desire to hurt myself, you understand, more of just a way to 'exit' a life where I'm miserable because nobody wants me. I understand it's a bit of a dick move to friends & family etc, but how long should a person to continue living in misery, just so they don't inconvenience others? Should you not put yourself first? I'm genuinely asking. "Dealing with" being ugly pretty much sounds like admitting defeat, even moreso than suicide: at least with suicide you're choosing to get out, but accepting being unwanted? Jesus, the idea that I've got another 50 years of "work, pay bills & die" to look forward to sounds like a Life Sentence.
 
O

Ozymandias

Active member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
25
Location
West London
It's an interesting piece, it's fairly unconcealed; obviously some people will become more picky as the unlimited supply makes the idea of 'someone else might be better' very appealing. However, if it was straight across the board, then nobody would ever get a date from such apps, as each person would be rejecting everyone etc, and we know that's not the case. From my perspective, each normal looking person seems to get at least a few dates out of online dating, I'm not talking anything crazy here. By not even so much as getting a match, it's very easy to feel abnormal.
Please allow me to be more specific here, as that was a relatively basic piece. I've seen the concept - as it relates to dating - more fleshed out elsewhere, but I wasn't able to find that article when I was looking for it the other day, so I'll add here what I can recall from it.

The theoretical issue doesn't manifest at the 'swiping' stage - that's just about pure looks, and anyone who tries to claim otherwise is, frankly, full of shit in my opinion. It's actually at the dating stage where the paradox/tyranny of choice manifests... a lot of people are having just one or two dates with a particular person and then moving on, not because they feel an active 'no!' about that individual, but because they don't feel an active 'yes!'. The theory is that people are now becoming more demanding - because of how many more options that online dating provides - and so if someone doesn't blow them away on the spot, they move on because surely there's someone out there who will. It's all very 'instant gratification', and as such has caused even love to be tainted by a consumerist mentality (on top of the shallowness that online dating facilitates, this is the other reason I find it to be morally distasteful).

The thing is though, love takes time! Sure, if someone is giving you very bad vibes after one or two dates then move on, I'm not disputing that... what I'm saying is that uncertainty after several dates can develop into something stronger given time and opportunity. However, people have become reluctant to take that extra time, not just because they feel like someone 'should' knock you off your feet instantly, but also because it's 'wasting' time - there are so many alternative options that people feel under pressure to try out as many as possible (a personal annotation here is that this final point also fits in with - and so could be influenced by - the general societal pressures to 'try everything once', and 'regret what you do, not what you don't)

Can totally relate. The whole body positivity movement has allowed people to 'own' things about themselves, such as height, weight, all types of people, yet ugly people are not allowed to admit that we're ugly, we're told we have to 'think differently' and that will change things.
I'm very split on the concept of body positivity... don't get me wrong - I have nothing whatsoever against the basic principle, not at all! - but the manifestation of it is awkward because the uncomfortable fact is that, in general, some physical traits are more attractive to most people than others. The only way of escaping this is by either making everybody look the same, or by making everyone blind.

I don't disagree that beauty can be in the eye of the beholder, but there are very distinct trends across any given population. Like it or not, unless companies are trying to make a statement, models - both male and female - fit into relatively narrow physical parameters. I am very confident that anyone who reads this will know exactly what I mean, which - if so - would kind of prove my point.

That's absolutely fair. I don't believe I've become bitter -against- women, it's not their fault they want nothing to do with me, you're either attracted to someone or you aren't. I'm still fairly open and not defensive when meeting new people, I'm just less surprised when I get the ugly-guy brush off.
I think, for me, enough rejections have piled up on top of each other over the years (I'm 41, so I've had a lot of time for it to happen) that it's become too hard to see them as many examples of individual responses, as I'm told that I'm supposed to (it's weird... I understand the logic, perfectly so, but it just doesn't translate at an emotional level; I understand how people can think differently about this, but can't comprehend the idea of it feeling differently), and all too easy to see them as representative of the one thing that every person who's rejected me has in common: the fact that they're female.

Ergo - those females have rejected me, and so others will. And the very few exceptions to that rule who I've encountered serve only to prove it. That's the only conclusion I've been able to reach on the subject which I can reconcile both logically and emotionally.

Reminds me of an old friend. He had a chin that could open bottles and big sticky out ears but he got all the girls because he was sensible.
Ha... I was 'sensible' once, very much so. It never got me anywhere with women.

It seems the way you present here may colour some people's opinion that it is your mental health that could be the problem. In all fairness to everyone here who has attempted to tackle your problem from a mental health point of view, this IS a mental health forum dude!!
In fairness, this comes from an assumption - which everyone in this thread seems to have made - that the OP presents himself in real life the way he does on here, and nobody knows whether or not that's the case (or to what extent it is the case). Look at yourself (not just the person whose post I've quoted, but anyone who reads this) - is your persona on here the same as your real-life one?

I get that people on a mental health forum are going to view a poster's distress through a mental health prism, but could his situation be more nuanced than that? What I mean is, while his response to his situation is pathological, that doesn't necessarily mean the way he evaluates himself is 'wrong'.

Returning to an above point, some people are more - and less - objectively attractive than others, and this FACT is important to people, hence why online daters with pictures in their profiles get more responses than those who don't, and why something as shallow as Tinder even exists in the first place.

Maybe the OP is at the lower end of this spectrum, in which case the basic personal evaluation (not the response; that's something else) is surely not indicative of illness, but rather self-awareness?

I think this is important because, if he is physically unattractive, advising the guy about what to do with his lot is constructive, but - in my opinion - telling him that he's not ugly, or that if he is then it doesn't matter, is just bullshitting/gaslighting him.

You have fixated (it seems) on tinder as the proper arbiter of looks and attractiveness and repeatedly stood by it as being accurate (potential mental health problem in ltself).
This, I personally believe, is the single biggest mistake that the OP is currently making. I can't comment on the OP's self-evaluation, but this I do know - it doesn't matter if a person is ugly, or simply believes that they are; anyone who feels negatively about the way they look should not, for the sake of their self-esteem, be using the most looks-centric way of meeting other people that exists - Tinder - to try and find someone!
 
HauntedWitch

HauntedWitch

ACCOUNT CLOSED
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Jul 9, 2019
Messages
501
Location
somewhere between here and there
However, relationships are also not easy and present there own problems. It is rare that two people meet and life is happy ever after. Quite often the relationship can cause more problems than a person started with./QUOTE]

You can say that again!

Sometimes you meet people who say they think a relationship is all they need to 'fix' their problems. And then and only then they will be happy -- so they think. I used to agree with them.

I now believe, from experience, it is best to fix your own problems first before complicating your life with another person's messes.

Happily single ever after.
 
HauntedWitch

HauntedWitch

ACCOUNT CLOSED
Joined
Jul 9, 2019
Messages
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somewhere between here and there
Even two days ago I got my first Tinder match in months, and it was literally someone who matched with me, messaged me to call me ugly and then unmatched.
Seriously...a person who does something like that to you is just plain mean-spirited. Never assess yourself based on the judgement of rude strangers.
 
Luci

Luci

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2019
Messages
501
Location
England
is your persona on here the same as your real-life one?
Yes, I'm just as brutal in real life. So people either understand and appreciate me or think I'm an arsehole. It just means that the few people who can put up with me are actually worth me time :)
But I 100% get what you mean with this statement. A lot of people have the confidence they dont have offline, online.. and things don't always come across the way you want to present them in writing.... I speak how I type, and I know what it looks like in writing sometimes compared to what I actually want to say can be interpreted wrong. I am trying to work on this in my 'normal' life, because if people don't know me I don't present well, and even though I don't care, sometimes that's important. For example I would have lost custody of my children by now because their first social worker had me pinned as aggressive, when in fact it was his demeanor, his lack of respect and the fact he couldn't see through my abusive ex triggering me when he met with me.... that line has helped me, in a way that totally wasn't intended, but helped me get somewhere. Thank you :)


Seriously...a person who does something like that to you is just plain mean-spirited. Never assess yourself based on the judgement of rude strangers.
This!
 
J

JCPraha

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2018
Messages
432
Yes, that is a very nasty person. It is better you did not meet up with them.
 
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