Suicidal Because Ugly (Male)

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Thiswaythatway

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#61
Honestly, I really don't. I mean, doctors do 7 years of medical school, and I'm supposed to walk into my GP's office and say "Doctor doctor, I'm sad because girls don't like me!" and expect this medical professional to help. Maybe they'll write me a prescription for Match.com? But seriously, even hypothetically, antidepressants and suchlike are temporary, and do nothing to address the root cause.
If you went into a doctor's surgery and used the language you use in the headline of this thread or mention your thoughts around an "alternative", a doctor would take you very seriously indeed. They would doubtless recommend antidepressants which are designed to help you find a level to begin to get to the root.

Id also say the 7 years of training they have will in part enable them to help you address your problem with patience and understanding. The fact they are paid may well help them offer the higher degree of patience you need.

Take care dude.
 
O

Ozymandias

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#63
i have never used Tinder but i think its unfair to discount someone just based on their looks, which is what tinder seems to be about.
I'm not easily offended - I have a vile sense of humour and see pretty much anything and everything as fair game for jokes - but Tinder offends me. Seriously. The level to which you put yourself up for objectification, and to which you're encouraged to objectify others, is just completely repugnant to me... I think the whole concept is vile.

Whilst it's not the only way I'm trying to meet people, obviously having access to a large volume of people should hypothetically increase chances of finding someone you like, or rather, someone who likes you.
While a common assumption - and true to an extent - it's actually the case that there's such thing as too much choice for human beings to cope with... the so-called 'Paradox (or Tyranny) of Choice'. This concept is applicable to dating, and indeed is a major - but not particularly well-known - drawback of online dating:

You might still be single because of something called the 'paradox of choice' - Business Insider

If you went into a doctor's surgery and used the language you use in the headline of this thread or mention your thoughts around an "alternative", a doctor would take you very seriously indeed. They would doubtless recommend antidepressants which are designed to help you find a level to begin to get to the root.
It depends on how you define 'taken seriously'. I've actually done what you mentioned, walked into a doctor's surgery - many doctor's surgeries, in fact... and different kinds of doctors - and told them that my looks are a key component of my suicidal thoughts (as I feel trapped in a body which condemns me to loneliness), but they always write it off as being psychological.

My argument is that if someone is ugly and acknowledges it, it's not an 'illness' or any lack of confidence - it's plain and simple self-awareness. And looks matter... why else are apps like Tinder so popular (and why do some people get more matches than others? From the heterosexual male side, it's certainly not because women are all psychics who can accurately read a personality without needing anything more than a single still photo)? Why do models generally fit a very specific profile? Why are actors with - say - wonky teeth only ever the bad guy or the comedy relief (because, obviously, not having perfect teeth automatically makes you a lesser human being in every way)? What's considered ugly is rarely spelled out as clearly as that which is considered beautiful, but it's nevertheless pretty clear if you do a bit of reading between the lines.

I've told doctors that the money spent on having me perpetually dosed up on medication, and repeatedly passing me around the 'therapy circuit' (as I call it), would be better spent on plastic surgery. I mean it, and genuinely believe it. They think it's just another symptom of an illness (even though they acknowledge that there's an aspect of my looks which most people have fixed, but which I've been unable to and am very self-conscious about) *shrugs*

I wish you well with it all SpoonySpoon, I really do... I'm in a similar situation, which is why I can't offer you any practical advice - if I knew the way through it, I wouldn't still be stuck in it at 41 years of age. The one thing I'll offer - which is easier said than done if sufficient time passes and sufficient rejections occur - is to try as hard as you can to never let yourself become bitter about it. I've gone too far down that route, been on it too long... I don't think I can come back from it in all honesty. I'm wary of women now... I expect them all to look down on me and hurt me unless I keep a 'safe' distance, and - as a heterosexual male - it's just not possible to find someone if you're obviously reticent and defensive; you're not allowed to lack 'confidence', no matter whether or not you have good reason to - 'average' looking guys are expected to be just as confident as tall, dark, and handsome men, even though it's a demand so unfair and unrealistic as to be almost laughable.
 
A

albagobragh

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#64
Seriously, its confidence. There are varying levels of physical attractiveness and yes, some women will be drawn to handsome men, but women like confidence and personality. The advice above is top notch - don't think of women as potential partners, just be yourself, take it easy and enjoy their company.
 
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SpoonySpoon

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#65
On a purely practical front is there anything you can do to change up your look? Wear glasses, grow a beard, different hairstyle etc. Try and make the most of what you've got.
I have no idea how you work on sex appeal.
Online dating sounds horrific.
To be honest, my look has changed a number of times since I was a teenager. That's not deliberate, just the passage of time etc, you go through phases of dressing a certain way, different haircuts etc. I've certainly done my best to work with what I have in the last few years, joined a gym and got in better shape, dress in flattering cuts, paying attention to details etc. Really all the effort hardly feels worth it!

That is what therapy is for, what is the root cause in your opinion?
The root cause is that I am unwanted by the opposite sex.

If I ask questions, please believe it's not because I'm trying to be awkward or catch anyone out, but I genuinely don't see how therapy is an applicable solution to such a problem. If therapy is to treat 'internal' issues, and my issue seems to lie in the 'external', what's the cause and effect here?

While a common assumption - and true to an extent - it's actually the case that there's such thing as too much choice for human beings to cope with... the so-called 'Paradox (or Tyranny) of Choice'. This concept is applicable to dating, and indeed is a major - but not particularly well-known - drawback of online dating:

You might still be single because of something called the 'paradox of choice' - Business Insider
It's an interesting piece, it's fairly unconcealed; obviously some people will become more picky as the unlimited supply makes the idea of 'someone else might be better' very appealing. However, if it was straight across the board, then nobody would ever get a date from such apps, as each person would be rejecting everyone etc, and we know that's not the case. From my perspective, each normal looking person seems to get at least a few dates out of online dating, I'm not talking anything crazy here. By not even so much as getting a match, it's very easy to feel abnormal.

My argument is that if someone is ugly and acknowledges it, it's not an 'illness' or any lack of confidence - it's plain and simple self-awareness. And looks matter... why else are apps like Tinder so popular (and why do some people get more matches than others? From the heterosexual male side, it's certainly not because women are all psychics who can accurately read a personality without needing anything more than a single still photo)? Why do models generally fit a very specific profile? Why are actors with - say - wonky teeth only ever the bad guy or the comedy relief (because, obviously, not having perfect teeth automatically makes you a lesser human being in every way)? What's considered ugly is rarely spelled out as clearly as that which is considered beautiful, but it's nevertheless pretty clear if you do a bit of reading between the lines.
Can totally relate. The whole body positivity movement has allowed people to 'own' things about themselves, such as height, weight, all types of people, yet ugly people are not allowed to admit that we're ugly, we're told we have to 'think differently' and that will change things.

The one thing I'll offer - which is easier said than done if sufficient time passes and sufficient rejections occur - is to try as hard as you can to never let yourself become bitter about it. I've gone too far down that route, been on it too long... I don't think I can come back from it in all honesty. I'm wary of women now... I expect them all to look down on me and hurt me unless I keep a 'safe' distance, and - as a heterosexual male - it's just not possible to find someone if you're obviously reticent and defensive; you're not allowed to lack 'confidence', no matter whether or not you have good reason to - 'average' looking guys are expected to be just as confident as tall, dark, and handsome men, even though it's a demand so unfair and unrealistic as to be almost laughable.
That's absolutely fair. I don't believe I've become bitter -against- women, it's not their fault they want nothing to do with me, you're either attracted to someone or you aren't. I'm still fairly open and not defensive when meeting new people, I'm just less surprised when I get the ugly-guy brush off.
 
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Helena1

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#66
So do you match with every woman on tinder and then see who matches back?

What have you written on your bio, as I would suspect that anyone looking for more than a hook up would read that?
 
Luci

Luci

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#67
The root cause is that I am unwanted by the opposite sex.

If I ask questions, please believe it's not because I'm trying to be awkward or catch anyone out, but I genuinely don't see how therapy is an applicable solution to such a problem. If therapy is to treat 'internal' issues, and my issue seems to lie in the 'external', what's the cause and effect here?
Ok so the point everyone is trying to make in multiple different ways is that isn't actually the problem. You just think it is. And it's easier to believe that than to admit the truth. That's why you need therapy.
Theres no simpler way to put it and at this point I really feel you are just continuing this thread to disagree with people, because you appear to enjoy it. So again, therapy. Luci out :innocent:
 
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Helena1

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#68
Ok so the point everyone is trying to make in multiple different ways is that isn't actually the problem. You just think it is. And it's easier to believe that than to admit the truth. That's why you need therapy.
Theres no simpler way to put it and at this point I really feel you are just continuing this thread to disagree with people, because you appear to enjoy it. So again, therapy. Luci out :innocent:
What is the truth?
 
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SpoonySpoon

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#72
So do you match with every woman on tinder and then see who matches back?

What have you written on your bio, as I would suspect that anyone looking for more than a hook up would read that?
Not exactly. From the best I can tell, Tinder's algorithm is complex; swiping right on everyone makes it think you're a spambot and make you less visible to users, they also prioritise paid users (screwing over the free users). For that, I swipe to most people, but swipe left to ones who are further away, out of my age range, have children, no profile photo etc.

Ok so the point everyone is trying to make in multiple different ways is that isn't actually the problem. You just think it is. And it's easier to believe that than to admit the truth. That's why you need therapy.
Theres no simpler way to put it and at this point I really feel you are just continuing this thread to disagree with people, because you appear to enjoy it. So again, therapy. Luci out :innocent:
See, I stated in my very first post here that certainly a big issue I have is not being believed, and so far a lot of people in this thread have only confirmed this.

I live my life, I'm present for 100% of my interactions, yet people who see me once a month (or even people who've never met me) assume they know better, and what the problem 'really' is. It's incredibly isolating when nobody seems to believe the words that I am saying, instead seem to twist them to meet their theories. Once again, I must ask, what benefit do you believe therapy will bring to me, when the problem that I have is that women are unattracted to me?

That is my problem, I'm not sure what more I can do to assure you this is the case. It's not what I want it to be, and I'm certainly not proud, just the hand I seem to have been dealt. I assure you I do not enjoy constantly disagreeing with people, I'm just doing my best to assert that what I'm saying is true, and dispelling a lot of assumptions made from other people.
 
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Ramson mash

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#73
Just my 2 cents here. I would much rather have the intelligence and education to freely express myself as you do.
Looks might get you a girl to take interest initially. But your skills can give you more long term sucess and can build your confidence over time.

I've noticed also that alot of girls are into style as well as looks. Nice haircut, trendy clothes etc. Make as much effort as you can and you should get good feedback. Show confidence and play it cool.
Tinder is having the opposite effect on your self asteem, so branch out.
Best of luck.
 
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Ramson mash

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#74
Reminds me of an old friend. He had a chin that could open bottles and big sticky out ears but he got all the girls because he was sensible.
 
Luci

Luci

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#75
See, I stated in my very first post here that certainly a big issue I have is not being believed, and so far a lot of people in this thread have only confirmed this.

I live my life, I'm present for 100% of my interactions, yet people who see me once a month (or even people who've never met me) assume they know better, and what the problem 'really' is. It's incredibly isolating when nobody seems to believe the words that I am saying, instead seem to twist them to meet their theories. Once again, I must ask, what benefit do you believe therapy will bring to me, when the problem that I have is that women are unattracted to me?

That is my problem, I'm not sure what more I can do to assure you this is the case. It's not what I want it to be, and I'm certainly not proud, just the hand I seem to have been dealt. I assure you I do not enjoy constantly disagreeing with people, I'm just doing my best to assert that what I'm saying is true, and dispelling a lot of assumptions made from other people.
No one has said they dont believe you.
No one has assumed they know you better than you.
No one is twisting your words.
No one is making assumptions.
These are all your perceptions, that us why I believe you would benefit from therapy.
This site is for people to express their opinions, share their experiences, and advise if people ask. That is all that has happened here. We are trying to help you. If this is upsetting or triggering for you maybe sharing your vulnerabilities on a forum isn't best for you? Private messaging may be more helpful? It is easy to feel 'attacked' on a thread. The amount of responses,people giving their opinions and help, in my opinion, just shows how much we all care about you ♡ we know how you feel. Challenging my thoughts and perceptions was VERY difficult for me when I was younger, but being truly honest with myself is the best way for me to recover. I have just been trying to share that idea with you, but I suck at communicating.
 
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Thiswaythatway

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#76
It seems the way you present here may colour some people's opinion that it is your mental health that could be the problem. In all fairness to everyone here who has attempted to tackle your problem from a mental health point of view, this IS a mental health forum dude!!

So, its a very difficult situation you pose. You have not as far as i can see said that YOU believe yourself to be ugly, its that women find you ugly. Logically people will then assume its a personality, presentation issue. This is a fuzzy area as far as your explanation goes.

You have fixated (it seems) on tinder as the proper arbiter of looks and attractiveness and repeatedly stood by it as being accurate (potential mental health problem in ltself). You have however gone on to accept it is rigged in favour of paid users and the algorithms have a level of sophistication which is good in a way but also might allude to an unhealthy obsession.

You have taken on a protective, closed stance on the accuracy of your first post and given zero quarter despite what it seems to me many kind folk offering the best advice they can. Is ridged thinking a mental health area?

It seems you want people to agree with your assessment of things, which is a completely unreasonable thing to expect in an area that may well have plagued others here. I know how it feels to want everyone to say "yes dude, you are as ugly as sin" but at the same time know how utterly devastating and self destructive that desire is. You have mentioned self destruction a couple of times and even if you are terribly ugly that is absolutely a mental health issue as it suggests its the only thing that makes you being alive a worthwhile thing and at your very admission you have a worthwhile life and clearly value yourself.

So if your ugliness is making you want to die, ending your existence forever, destroying the potential for you to do good, to succeed, making your friends suffer your loss, which simply does not go away when someone commits suicide then we HAVE to conclude the main issue is mental health based even though you are ugly. So therapy may be of use even if it is only to help you deal better with your ugliness.
 
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SpoonySpoon

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#77
No one has said they dont believe you.
No one has assumed they know you better than you.
No one is twisting your words.
No one is making assumptions.
These are all your perceptions, that us why I believe you would benefit from therapy.
This site is for people to express their opinions, share their experiences, and advise if people ask. That is all that has happened here. We are trying to help you. If this is upsetting or triggering for you maybe sharing your vulnerabilities on a forum isn't best for you? Private messaging may be more helpful? It is easy to feel 'attacked' on a thread. The amount of responses,people giving their opinions and help, in my opinion, just shows how much we all care about you ♡ we know how you feel. Challenging my thoughts and perceptions was VERY difficult for me when I was younger, but being truly honest with myself is the best way for me to recover. I have just been trying to share that idea with you, but I suck at communicating.
So, I'm not going to bring up previous quotes from you personally in this thread, I'm just going to gesture wildly and hope that is enough. Pretty much from the outset your replies have been disbelieving of things I've said, and even just a few posts ago assuming you know better (referring to the "he thinks it's external but actually it's internal").

It's an "Occam's Razor" situation: the idea that with a complex problem, the simplest explanation is almost always the correct one. So you have a person who is viewed as physically unattractive by others, many expressing such views with exacting clarity, who never gets a match based on his photos, has women openly shuddering at his appearance, one who has never had a girlfriend, and your go-to explanation is.... "well he must be projecting his insecurities on people!"?

I do not feel upset or triggered, just mildly inconvenienced that as much as I'm trying to communicate my experiences, it's getting second guessed at every turn as "must be something else". If people won't believe in the premise my issue is based on, we're never going to have a productive discussion: I don't believe in ghosts, and if you asked me for advice with a ghost problem, we would not be able to have a decent discussion about it.

It seems the way you present here may colour some people's opinion that it is your mental health that could be the problem. In all fairness to everyone here who has attempted to tackle your problem from a mental health point of view, this IS a mental health forum dude!!
So, the mental health issue is a symptom, the cause is being unwanted by women. It's not a vicious circle, it's a pretty straight line.

So, its a very difficult situation you pose. You have not as far as i can see said that YOU believe yourself to be ugly, its that women find you ugly. Logically people will then assume its a personality, presentation issue. This is a fuzzy area as far as your explanation goes.
To be honest, what I 'feel' doesn't really seem to matter in terms of dating. Overall I think I'm in the ballpark of 'normal' but obviously some days will be more or less so. Please, if something is unclear I'm happy to answer questions, I'd really rather that then people jumping to conclusions.

You have fixated (it seems) on tinder as the proper arbiter of looks and attractiveness and repeatedly stood by it as being accurate (potential mental health problem in ltself). You have however gone on to accept it is rigged in favour of paid users and the algorithms have a level of sophistication which is good in a way but also might allude to an unhealthy obsession.
I'm not fixated, but I use it as an example because it seems to be the least-messy one. I can talk about the times I get rejected in bars & clubs, but then I get the "that's where you're going wrong, no 22 year old ever met a girl in a bar!" or I can talk about the times I've gone speed dating (a place where woman have literally paid money to find a date) and got 100% rejection, but then I get the "must be something you said!" excuse. So in comes Tinder, a system that completely removes: race, class, wealth, religion, confidence, accent etc, and boils it down to a binary "are you attractive?" and the overwhelming answer is "no". Seriously, even two days ago I got my first Tinder match in months, and it was literally someone who matched with me, messaged me to call me ugly and then unmatched. But I tell that story here and people say "well it must be because you're not confident enough!" or some other BS. As far as the stuff with algorithms goes, like most self-respecting millenials, I have googled "how to get more matches on Tinder" and fell into the explanation of how the deck is stacked, so that I may play it better.

You have taken on a protective, closed stance on the accuracy of your first post and given zero quarter despite what it seems to me many kind folk offering the best advice they can. Is ridged thinking a mental health area?
You may call it rigid thinking if you like, but I know I am correct in my experiences, but apparently when I try to express those experiences to other people, they try to retroactively reframe them as something else. To use a quote from Mad Men, "People tell us who they are, and we ignore it, because we want them to be who we want them to be." I will tell a friend with absolute clarity that I feel low because a woman called me ugly, and my friend will re-frame it as "don't worry about her, you'll find The One eventually!": now, I've never expressed an interest in finding "The One", but my friend did, and it made her happy, so naturally she wants the same thing for me, even though I have no interest in it.

It seems you want people to agree with your assessment of things, which is a completely unreasonable thing to expect in an area that may well have plagued others here. I know how it feels to want everyone to say "yes dude, you are as ugly as sin" but at the same time know how utterly devastating and self destructive that desire is. You have mentioned self destruction a couple of times and even if you are terribly ugly that is absolutely a mental health issue as it suggests its the only thing that makes you being alive a worthwhile thing and at your very admission you have a worthwhile life and clearly value yourself.

So if your ugliness is making you want to die, ending your existence forever, destroying the potential for you to do good, to succeed, making your friends suffer your loss, which simply does not go away when someone commits suicide then we HAVE to conclude the main issue is mental health based even though you are ugly. So therapy may be of use even if it is only to help you deal better with your ugliness.
It's difficult to explain. The thoughts about killing myself do not come from a desire to hurt myself, you understand, more of just a way to 'exit' a life where I'm miserable because nobody wants me. I understand it's a bit of a dick move to friends & family etc, but how long should a person to continue living in misery, just so they don't inconvenience others? Should you not put yourself first? I'm genuinely asking. "Dealing with" being ugly pretty much sounds like admitting defeat, even moreso than suicide: at least with suicide you're choosing to get out, but accepting being unwanted? Jesus, the idea that I've got another 50 years of "work, pay bills & die" to look forward to sounds like a Life Sentence.
 

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