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Smoking might cause brain changes in schizophrenia

pkeegs

pkeegs

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Hmm... Not entirely unexpected. Using addictive substances has been known for years to change the brain.

Now to actually read the article...
 
Mark_01

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I smoked for almost forty years, was mental before I started, and though I quit five years ago, am still mental.
 
McMurphy's Ghost

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It's all done with smoke and mirrors. Or, how to create the illusion of a schizophrenic brain disease

It's all done with smoke and mirrors

The paper in the thread is based on a false premise.....their are no and never has it ever been shown that their are any differences between the brains of people with the schizophrenia label and those who don't.

The above is a plain old fashioned fact. All differences can be explained by natural variation.

The above facts are factually correct imo...imo
 
Toasted Crumpet

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Are there not differences after one has taken meds? I thought research had shown anti-psychotics can cause brain shrinkage? I don't think I'm as clever as before I took them, though there are a lot of clever people on here who've been on them longer than I was, so maybe I'm wrong.
 
McMurphy's Ghost

McMurphy's Ghost

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Are there not differences after one has taken meds? I thought research had shown anti-psychotics can cause brain shrinkage? I don't think I'm as clever as before I took them, though there are a lot of clever people on here who've been on them longer than I was, so maybe I'm wrong.
Yes...this is correct. Their are some older studies which show brain shrinkage but they were never "washed" for the people who had taken antipsychotics. Newer studies have confirmed that people with a diagnosis but who have never been exposed to antipsychotics show no shrinkage. All the shrinkage is down to the antipsychotics in other words.

Elli Lilliy did its own studies on monkeys and confirmed the effect. Those studies are in the public domain. For the record I don't believe their are any psychiatrists who deny this now. The whole argument revolves around risk vs supposed benefit.

If anyone wants to look up the papers the best work is by Nancy Andreason, who initially being a big proponent of the broken brain theory was reluctant to publish her results but did publish because the evidence is the evidence.

imo.
 
pkeegs

pkeegs

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It's all done with smoke and mirrors. Or, how to create the illusion of a schizophrenic brain disease

It's all done with smoke and mirrors

The paper in the thread is based on a false premise.....their are no and never has it ever been shown that their are any differences between the brains of people with the schizophrenia label and those who don't.

The above is a plain old fashioned fact. All differences can be explained by natural variation.

The above facts are factually correct imo...imo
Just because there are no differences on a macroscopic level does not mean that there are no differences at all.

And this article is about the effects of cigarettes, specifically on those with schizophrenia. We could probably safely assume that these effects appear in "normal" people.

imo
 
McMurphy's Ghost

McMurphy's Ghost

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Just because there are no differences on a macroscopic level does not mean that there are no differences at all.

And this article is about the effects of cigarettes, specifically on those with schizophrenia. We could probably safely assume that these effects appear in "normal" people.

imo
OK...I've already explained in tedious detail why this kind of thinking is faulty. I repeat it is not my job to disprove your theory. It's up to you to prove your theory.

To elucidate.

pkeegs: Fairies come in the night and put incredibly smalls worms into some peoples heads

other: No evidence exists that show this might be true

pkeegs: yes..but that doesn't mean it's not true

I don't mean to ridicule you i'm just making a point about foolishness....

imo
 
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pkeegs

pkeegs

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OK...I've already explained in tedious detail why this kind of thinking is faulty. I repeat it is not my job to disprove your theory. It's up to you to prove your theory.

To elucidate.

pkeegs: Fairies come in the night and put incredibly smalls worms into some peoples heads

other: No evidence exists that show this might be true

pkeegs: yes..but that doesn't mean it's not true

I don't mean to ridicule you i'm just making a point about foolishness....

imo
There could very well be differences in how the neurons themselves function. There could also be differences in neurotransmitter levels. There could be differences in the way the neurons are organized. There could be differences in myelination. There are so many things that could be different that they simply can't all be studied now.

To insist that there's no difference between the brain of a healthy individual and the brain of someone with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression, or any other mental illness is like insisting that there's no fundamental difference between the meteorological patterns of a hurricane and a sunny day. You seem to be insisting that the symptoms come from nowhere. Sure, the cause could stem from psychological or social factors, but the fact is that people with similar genetics are more likely to both be mentally ill. It's just a fact. And the fact that it's somewhat genetically based indicates that there's a difference in the body; probably in the brain, because that's what controls those things.

I understand that you've had a terrible experience with psychiatry, but that doesn't make it evil or invalid.
 
pkeegs

pkeegs

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No it isn't.
Then tell me why my dad's dad suffered from bouts of psychosis, my mom's mom was a raging alcoholic and very depressed, my mom's dad was bipolar, my mom is very unstable emotionally, both of my brothers have depression, and I have a psychotic disorder. Please, explain to me why this is the way it is, other than genetics.

Also: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2013/five-major-mental-disorders-share-genetic-roots.shtml

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_mental_disorders
 
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C

Callalily

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Then tell me why my dad's dad suffered from bouts of psychosis, my mom's mom was a raging alcoholic and very depressed, my mom's dad was bipolar, my mom is very unstable emotionally, both of my brothers have depression, and I have a psychotic disorder. Please, explain to me why this is the way it is, other than genetics.
Nurture? Being brought up in an unstable environment? Distress from witnessing disturbing behaviour?
 

cpuusage

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Nurture? Being brought up in an unstable environment? Distress from witnessing disturbing behaviour?
Yea - generational pain, learned behaviour etc. Countless other reasons. & you can tie it all into epigenetics/brain plasticity if you want a physiological angle to it all as well.
 
pkeegs

pkeegs

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Nurture? Being brought up in an unstable environment? Distress from witnessing disturbing behaviour?
All possible factors. But my mom was brought up in a stable environment, and so was I (relative to many who do not develop such illnesses). My mom was adopted. The examples I gave were her genetic parents, not her adoptive ones.

I tend to think that there is a preexisting genetic disposition towards such disorders, and that living with such behavior induces stress which triggers the brain to act in a certain way; a way in which it would not act were there no predisposition. Many people, like myself, go to college and smoke a little weed and go to classes and find it all very hectic. Very few people come back psychotic.
 
C

Callalily

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Being adopted can bring about a lot of issues too as I am sure you are aware. I feel pretty confident that if I knew the whole life story of someone on here, I would find it perfectly understandable why they have suffered in the way they have without thinking it must be about genes.
 
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