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"Schiz" and the gentic link take another hit....how long before this ship sinks?

McMurphy's Ghost

McMurphy's Ghost

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"Schiz" and the gentic link take another hit....how long before this ship sinks?

http://www.behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2014/02/12/genetic-protection-against-schizophrenia/

“Schizophrenia” is not a unified condition. Rather, it is a loose collection of vaguely defined behaviors. For this reason, any genetic research done on this condition will inevitably result in conflicting and confusing results. It’s like looking for genetic similarities in all the people who play scrabble, or cheat on their taxes, or collect postage stamps, or whatever. If the sample sizes are large enough, one could probably find small effects in all or most of these areas, but no one would conclude from this that these are genetically determined activities.
:D
 

cpuusage

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It's possible there is genetic mutation/epigenetic components to what people experience. Very little 'we' really know about genetics anyway, all things considered, & just as less about the brain. i wouldn't deny a physiology/biology to peoples conditions/experiences. It would make sense that psychosocial & imo spiritual/transpersonal areas are also to various degrees implicated in what people experience.

What are you saying the cause of 'distress' is, or whatever you want to call it all? & what are you proposing as a solution?

If we put psychology in the dock we can have the same fun, as you can with whatever the model/theory is - this is part of the issue.
 
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cpuusage

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What are you saying the cause of 'distress' is, or whatever you want to call it all? & what are you proposing as a solution?
i'm all for everyone having access to comprehensive psychosocial support approaches. Do you agree? & if you do, how do you propose such a shift is introduced & a fundamental change from the current system? it's a serious question. If the answer is along the lines of 'mental illness doesn't exist & do nothing' i'm afraid i can't agree.
 
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Grey168

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This is all hard sums to me, and due to brain disease and social conditioning I cant understand it except that it doesn't seem to prove much or have I got that wrong.
Where's Mayfair?:) He is good at explaining sums to me.

I remember having this discussion about genetics with people with debilitating physical conditions some of them due to genetics pre disposition. Even if it can be shown that someone is genetically predisposed to something ( physical or mental), it does not necessarily mean that they will go on to develop a condition does it?

Some people believe that possible predispositions can be exacerbated by traumatic stuff that they had been through, also in life. I share that view.
Some people would want to know that they were genetically predisposed to something, some wouldn't want to know.

More worrying for me is that people are allowed to choose if they have genetic tests, not that they are forced into them by say.... insurance companies for instance.

I am all for everyone having equal access to relevant support, and an informed choice about their care.

The current system strikes me as dire... reading most peoples posts on here. The forum hardly rings with joyful experiences to me, I wish it did.

I think starting to identify good practice and pushing forward on it as well as asking people, who have had bad experiences what could have been done better and pushing around that has to be a way forward.

It is very small steps.... all a bit pie in the sky for me as I seem to live in a support desert anyway... just not fit for purpose me...
But if anyone can explain the last bit...to me from the "the Report", it goes all Jeremy Clarkeson about cars..:scratcheshead: here's the quote....

Looking for the genetic causes of behavioral/emotional problems is a bit like studying the blueprint of a car in an attempt to discover why there is a dent in the fender. This is a particularly apt analogy, in that if one studied a very large number of dents in different vehicles, one would probably discover a weak correlation between the depth of the dent and the thickness of the steel used in the car’s manufacture. And this thickness would, of course, be shown on the car’s blueprint. So there will be a small correlation between an entry on the blueprint and the size of the dent, and this is analogous to the small correlations found between genes and subsequent behavioral problems.

But if we truly want to know why there is a dent in the car’s fender, it might be more fruitful to simply ask the owner.


Anyone know anything about cars..and how they run????:D lost me driving licence me..cant drive anymore due to medication, so it wasn't me guv I did not crash the car:innocent:
 
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McMurphy's Ghost

McMurphy's Ghost

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I remember having this discussion about genetics with people with debilitating physical conditions some of them due to genetics pre disposition. Even if it can be shown that someone is genetically predisposed to something ( physical or mental), it does not necessarily mean that they will go on to develop a condition does it?
The trouble with the stress vulnerability model of "mental illness" is that it has no explanatory power, except to suggest that some people are somehow weaker than others.

You can see it has no explanatory power by replacing vulnerability with "fairies in the head". Apply stress and if "illness" results then it is put down to "too many fairies in the head". If no "illness" results then "obviously no fairies". All the stress vulnerability model does is suggest some people have fairies in their heads and others don't or to many or not enough fairies.....or something....lol

The single allele theory of mental illness has been debunked....now copy number variation and genome wide association theories are getting the same treatment....

The end of the road must be insight.....to be honest there is not much left....surely...:)

As an aside this is very funny as well.... http://www.behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2014/02/24/psychiatry-still-trying-to-reinvent-itself/
 
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cpuusage

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But if anyone can explain the last bit...to me from the "the Report", it goes all Jeremy Clarkeson about cars..:scratcheshead: here's the quote....
The experts don't agree. The service users don't agree. & madness is still a mystery. That's about where we're at.

Looking into all the areas of physiology/biology/neurology, genetic & epigenetic areas, all the brain developmental theories & all the rest, it does make some sense.

Looking into all the psychogenic/psychological theory, it does make some sense.

Looking into all the stress/trauma, social constructivist/recovery theory/models, it does make some sense.

Looking into all the spiritual/transpersonal areas, it does make some sense.

i've personally concluded on a holistic/integrated model (as some throughout history always have done) that we are body/brain, mind/emotions, soul/spirit in an environment. A bio/psycho/social/spiritual model. As people discussed a hundred years ago (& before). i don't personally see any improvement on that model. It makes the most sense to me personally & i can't see that these conditions/experiences will ever be understood in either/or terms. it is individual/complex & covers multiple areas.

You press the critics on what it all is & how it should all be approached, & they can't give an answer either? All too easy to criticise stuff. But to say it's all nothing & do doing is just as insane as someone that's in genuine psychosis.
 
McMurphy's Ghost

McMurphy's Ghost

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The experts don't agree. The service users don't agree. & madness is still a mystery. That's about where we're at.

Looking into all the areas of physiology/biology/neurology, genetic & epigenetic areas, all the brain developmental theories & all the rest, it does make some sense.

Looking into all the psychogenic/psychological theory, it does make some sense.

Looking into all the stress/trauma, social constructivist/recovery theory/models, it does make some sense.

Looking into all the spiritual/transpersonal areas, it does make some sense.

i've personally concluded on a holistic/integrated model (as some throughout history always have done) that we are body/brain, mind/emotions, soul/spirit in an environment. A bio/psycho/social/spiritual model. As people discussed a hundred years ago (& before). i don't personally see any improvement on that model. It makes the most sense to me personally & i can't see that these conditions/experiences will ever be understood in either/or terms. it is individual/complex & covers multiple areas.

You press the critics on what it all is & how it should all be approached, & they can't give an answer either? All too easy to criticise stuff. But to say it's all nothing & do doing is just as insane as someone that's in genuine psychosis.
All you are saying here in a rather long winded way is that you believe that no theory is so bad that it doesn't have a grain of truth to it. Hardly novel.

imo
 

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All you are saying here in a rather long winded way is that you believe that no theory is so bad that it doesn't have a grain of truth to it. Hardly novel.

imo
Not exactly. But what are you saying? Psychiatry is rubbish, &?

Psychiatry's crap, OK, lots of things are crap. It's hardly worth devoting your whole life to telling people it's crap. Lets be honest; Psychology is crap as well, so is sociology, so is capitalism, & materialism, & politics, & fiat economics, & Oil dependency, & the school system, & racism, war, torture, poverty, inequality, & a million other things.
 
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McMurphy's Ghost

McMurphy's Ghost

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Not exactly. But what are you saying? Psychiatry is rubbish, &?

Psychiatry's crap, OK, lots of things are crap. It's hardly worth devoting your whole life to telling people it's crap. Lets be honest; Psychology is crap as well, so is sociology, so is capitalism, & materialism, & politics, & fiat economics, & Oil dependency, & the school system, & racism, war, torture, poverty, inequality, & a million other things.
This is a mental health forum..... in case you havn't noticed. Hence the nature of the posts....
 
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firemonkee57

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Not exactly. But what are you saying? Psychiatry is rubbish, &?
.
If MG wants to say psychiatry is crap then that's fair enough . It's his abject failure to propose better alternatives that is the real problem. It seems to be all about mindless destruction rather than tearing down as a process of making things better.
 
deadchick07

deadchick07

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McMurphy's Ghost. Just a question you are not oblidged to answer. Do you work?

or rather, what do you do for a living?
 
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