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Narcissism: Classical model vs. Tudor model

T

Thisisme373

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Jun 30, 2018
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I find narcissism very difficult to pin-point, like if someone has NPD or high traits. Like I know I do lack empathy, I do have some but it’s lacking. I also know I am selfish but I do care about others just not as much as myself. If I had NPD would I feel regret over what selfish things I have done?
I suffer with strong anxiety & depression which can make things more confusing.
Im just trying to understand if I have NPD or not, from everything I’ve read it seems I have narcissistic traits for sure but I want to be sure I don’t have NPD as I am aware that is ingrained forever. That scares me.
I will admit I am very selfish & have been exploitive. I didn’t realise what I was doing was so bad, I was blind to it, does this signal NPD or could it still be narcissistic traits that didn’t let me see what I was doing was bad?
I really do hate myself right now & I genuinely do feel bad for what I have done to people. I can see though that it won’t be super easy to change but I want to, I don’t want to be someone that people look at as a user or an asshole, I don’t want to hurt my loved ones, my selfishness blinded me to what I do. It’s kinda freaky & mindblowing to me how I shut out what I did. It’s hard for me to understand if me being able to do that stuff so easily without remorse if that is NPD or could be narcissistic traits. Then I get more confused as to be honest many people I know are selfish & do what’s ultimately best for them, they can’t all be narcissists?
also I do not look for attention, I am more a loner type, I do not think I am better than others, I can gossip about others a bit but everyone I know does that from what I can tell.i am not competetive with siblings or nothing like that, I would not be jealous if they are doing better than me, I do know though I certainly have some ugly traits that I am not proud of. I do want to change. I want to be a better person and I mean that.
 
Amazingly

Amazingly

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According to this new model my brother doesn’t have full blown NPD but could possibly have strong Narcissistic traits.
He feels guilt very strongly.
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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Like I know I do lack empathy, I do have some but it’s lacking. I also know I am selfish but I do care about others just not as much as myself. If I had NPD would I feel regret over what selfish things I have done?

If you had NPD then you would think everything you do is correct or justified and you would feel no regret.
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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According to this new model my brother doesn’t have full blown NPD but could possibly have strong Narcissistic traits.
He feels guilt very strongly.

If that is accurate then that is pretty definitive of him NOT having NPD.
 
T E_90

T E_90

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I find narcissism very difficult to pin-point, like if someone has NPD or high traits. Like I know I do lack empathy, I do have some but it’s lacking. I also know I am selfish but I do care about others just not as much as myself. If I had NPD would I feel regret over what selfish things I have done?
I suffer with strong anxiety & depression which can make things more confusing.
Im just trying to understand if I have NPD or not, from everything I’ve read it seems I have narcissistic traits for sure but I want to be sure I don’t have NPD as I am aware that is ingrained forever. That scares me.
I will admit I am very selfish & have been exploitive. I didn’t realise what I was doing was so bad, I was blind to it, does this signal NPD or could it still be narcissistic traits that didn’t let me see what I was doing was bad?
I really do hate myself right now & I genuinely do feel bad for what I have done to people. I can see though that it won’t be super easy to change but I want to, I don’t want to be someone that people look at as a user or an asshole, I don’t want to hurt my loved ones, my selfishness blinded me to what I do. It’s kinda freaky & mindblowing to me how I shut out what I did. It’s hard for me to understand if me being able to do that stuff so easily without remorse if that is NPD or could be narcissistic traits. Then I get more confused as to be honest many people I know are selfish & do what’s ultimately best for them, they can’t all be narcissists?
also I do not look for attention, I am more a loner type, I do not think I am better than others, I can gossip about others a bit but everyone I know does that from what I can tell.i am not competetive with siblings or nothing like that, I would not be jealous if they are doing better than me, I do know though I certainly have some ugly traits that I am not proud of. I do want to change. I want to be a better person and I mean that.
How can you still think you are a 'narcissist' or even have NPD (which is impossible to know prior diagnosis) and worrying about it too?
and at the same time worrying that others might notice it?
As said before, if you are so concerned about this to notice yourself, does it not mean that you are also very attentive to how you behave around others, thus avoiding showing narcissism?
And even if you are (highly doubt it), isn't it your choice whether others know this diagnosis or not?

I might be thick but, I have a diagnosis of a personality disorder that bring stigma and is shown in my behaviors, as much as NPD and that I can't hide much, but I can choose whether to say I have a pd or not.

Ultimately, YOU choose whether or not others may have prejudices towards you.
And in any case, if you had NPD you wouldn't be here struggling about it as it wouldn't bothered you nor would be your priority.

Everyone has some of the traits you're saying, some less some more, but I think you have entered in this state due to anxiety and depression or something else.
I think you're chasing ghosts, creating something in your head that if you didn't worry so much about, you wouldn't even notice it as well as others.
You could try to solve what's causing you depression and work on it.
 
T

Thisisme373

Active member
Joined
Jun 30, 2018
Messages
42
How can you still think you are a 'narcissist' or even have NPD (which is impossible to know prior diagnosis) and worrying about it too?
and at the same time worrying that others might notice it?
As said before, if you are so concerned about this to notice yourself, does it not mean that you are also very attentive to how you behave around others, thus avoiding showing narcissism?
And even if you are (highly doubt it), isn't it your choice whether others know this diagnosis or not?

I might be thick but, I have a diagnosis of a personality disorder that bring stigma and is shown in my behaviors, as much as NPD and that I can't hide much, but I can choose whether to say I have a pd or not.

Ultimately, YOU choose whether or not others may have prejudices towards you.
And in any case, if you had NPD you wouldn't be here struggling about it as it wouldn't bothered you nor would be your priority.

Everyone has some of the traits you're saying, some less some more, but I think you have entered in this state due to anxiety and depression or something else.
I think you're chasing ghosts, creating something in your head that if you didn't worry so much about, you wouldn't even notice it as well as others.
You could try to solve what's causing you depression and work on it.
Thank you for the honest reply. I think you may well be onto something with me entering this state due to anxiety, I’ve been locked in it for the past week, hyper focusing on if I might be narcissistic or not. About two weeks I sank into a bad mental state, anxiety went severe & it’s since then I stumbled across narcissism and have a suspicion that anxiety has really latched into this and distorted my mind somewhat.
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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Messages
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The classical diagnosis for NPD is (or was until recently) that the individual exhibits at least 5 of the following 9 symptoms:


(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

(4) requires excessive admiration

(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

This is an inherently unreliable basis for diagnosis. A narcissist usually thinks themself perfect and would generally be resistant to fall under judgement as being imperfect. They see their own behavior as appropriate, and they see anyone questioning their behavior as essentially an enemy. It is not hard to imagine that a clinician might miss one of five symptoms in a resistant subject, or indeed find some of these symptoms in a normal or non-NPD person. Further, narcissists are unlikely to seek treatment for the above reasons, which explains how grossly underdiagnosed NPD is.
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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The are three "schools" of narcissists according to the Tudor model:

1. The Lesser Narcissist.

The Lesser usually doesn't operate a facade effectively or at all. What you see is what you get. They typically have brash behavior to the point of being openly and obviously toxic. The Lessers are usually found in the lower strata of society with notable exceptions and typically have low intelligence, again with exceptions. The Lessers feature the Karen, the Neighbor from Hell and a portion of men who horribly abuse their partners, physically and mentally. An outstanding showcase of the Lesser is a video that surfaced in May 2021 of a (claimed) schoolteacher who racially abused a traffic cop during a stop, herself being a WoC. This is particularly interesting because a person of this background seems unlikely to be a holder of the kind of racism that was displayed in this instance. That is the hallmark of the narcissist. When they feel control threatened they simply grab onto any tool they can to assert control. In this instance it was the race of the deputy who was threatening control, which is something an unsophisticated narcissist like the Lesser might stoop to.

Intelligence is hard to gauge in especially the Lessers, because they are under the control of an unsophisticated type of narcissism. Therefore they often act in a manner that seems/is unintelligent, despite the fact that they might actually be highly intelligent. A prime example of this is Hermann Goering.

Well known Lessers from history are (probably) Henry VIII, Adolf Hitler, Hermann Goering, Joseph McCarthy, Richard Nixon and Donald Trump.

The Lessers are divided into subschools, which shall not be further mentioned.

More to follow.
 
LoqLamp

LoqLamp

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Diagnosis like these are useful to move them on to the correct therapy. They tend to be broad. It’s really only useful for clinicians but there is a rising trend of people reading dsmv entries and making assumptions. When you start to use those broad definitions in the general public everyone has issues.
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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2. The Midrange Narcissist.

The Midranger usually puts a sizable effort into maintaining a facade which is mostly successful. A large proportion of people are taken in, so to speak, by said facade and get a correspondingly positive view of the Midranger in question. Those who look more closely may notice when the facade slips, which it does from time to time. What comes into play here is that the narcissist acts in the moment. Whatever serves the narcissism in the moment becomes true, and the Midranger will utter statements in this manner. Although the narcissism in the Midranger is more sophisticated than in the Lesser, it is still primitive enough that the Midranger contradicts themselves eventually, allowing the facade to slip. This also happens when the facial expressions of the Midranger reveal what they are really thinking, not being caught by the narcissism before "publication".

The Midranger usually appears as a highly virtuous person, reflecting views and lifestyles that are in vogue at a given time. They sometimes appear as if they are permanently draped in syrup. They often use their established position of virtue to denigrate others who at a given time appear less virtuous, and take the lead in persecuting such individuals. Thus, the Midrangers play a prominent role in the current epidemic of cancel culture. The Midrangers are especially enabled by the rise of social media, in two ways. They are able to get their message across to much larger numbers of people, and the imperfect interface of social media makes it easier to construct a facade where the glitches go unnoticed.

In stark contrast to the facade, the Midranger displays often horrible behavior toward selected victims that the narcissism compels them to bring under control. Such behavior are witnessed by a much smaller numbers of people than those observing the facade. Therefore the victims are usually not believed. The Midranger usually operates a coterie of associates, individuals who are taken in by the facade and see the Midranger as mostly or wholly unblemished. This coterie is used frequently for the indirect assertion of control. Rather than the narcissist themself acts to persecute a victim, it is delegated to members of the coterie.

Prominent Midrangers include (probably) Meghan Markle, Piers Morgan, Kathleen Kennedy, Kamala Harris and Hillary Clinton.

An outstanding example of a Midranger is Meghan Markle, because her antics are so widely reported on that a rich data set is readily available.

Again, there are subschools without mention.

More to follow.
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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PS. on Midrangers:

Yoko Ono is probably one.

A whirlwind romance is a big red flag regarding narcissism.

Compare the whirlwind romances Ono-Lennon and Markle-Harry.
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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The third school of narcissists in the Tudor model is the Greater.

The Lessers and the Midrangers make up the vast majority of all narcissists, and they are unaware, that is they don't know what they are and they believe their actions are justified.

The Greaters are much rarer, and they are aware. They know they are abnormal, they know they abuse people for their own gratification. Their narcissism is not completely in possession of their faculties. They are much more calculated then the others. Their facade is extremely well maintained and it is very difficult to spot the rare instances where it slips.

The Greaters are usually found in high positions in society, movie studio executives, national leaders, etc. They have very large fuel matrixes, i.e. they can extract fuel from great numbers of people. They often appear teflon-coated, nothing seems to stick to them. When they commit an outrage, they are unlikely to be heavily criticized and they have cultivated the people closer to them, trained them like performing animals, so no adverse word gets directed at them. They often achieve a Jesus image. That said, they are not perfect and their behaviors sometimes catch up to them.

Prominent Greaters include (probably) Josef Stalin, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama and Boris Johnson.

Boris Johnson is an interesting case. His facade consists of the entirely manufactured image of "Bumbling Boris", which serves to make him look non-threatening and non-malicious. However, certain actions of Boris are presently catching up to him, actions that are indicative of narcissism.
 
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