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Narcissism: Classical model vs. Tudor model

GretaVon

GretaVon

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hmmm I do see number 1 in myself, trying to have control over people, I don’t do this with all people just the odd person, usually someone who is close like a significant other.
I also see number 4 in me residual benefits, I do this with a few people but it’s like I-refused to see it as exploitive or wrong, I knew it was deep down but felt no remorse.
The other 2 I don’t notice in me. I want to stop these things I do though like trying to have control or being selfish looking for residual benefits from people. I don’t want to be this way, it’s not right & I do feel guilt now that I can see it clearly. I couldn’t see it for such a long time, or I refused to see it.
As I have nigh narcissistic traits but not NPD I should be able to actively change these ways? I am more mindful already I feel.

Assuming you are describing yourself accurately, the conclusion would be that you are a non-NPD, there are several indicators to that effect, especially where you state you can feel guilt.

Let's be clear about this: Normal people do the same things that narcissists do. But they do those things sporadically and inconsistently. Especially a tendency to seek the first two prime aims could position a person as a high-narcissistic normal person.

To identify a narcissist one needs to analyze the person's behavior over a long time (many data points) and see if the behavior is consistently that of a narcissist. It is not enough to look at the prime aims as such, but more at behaviors associated with them and also what the person DOESN'T do, which a normal person would do, such as exhibiting genuine emotional empathy toward others.

Sometimes only a few events can raise strong suspicion, such as when a politician laughs out loud when located in a natural disaster zone, and only a little later is found out to be a plagiarist.

Knowing what the prime aims of the narcissist are, can indeed be helpful in avoiding actions associated with them.

Prime aim C is usually not a problem, since first of all it is rather benign and secondly it is unlikely to turn up in a normal person.

Then prime aim D is rather basic, we all (most?) want sex and money, and the thing is just to approach these goals in a healthy and moral manner.
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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I want to restate this with different nomenclature to avoid confusion:

The prime aims of the narcissist in order of importance:

A. Control over people (in the narc's mind)
B. Fuel (emotional responses of other people to the narc)
C. Character trait acquisition (because the narc arguably doesn't have a personality of their own)
D. Residual benefits (sex, money, usual things)

Tudor lumps A and B together. I don't understand why because they seem largely distinct, so I prefer not to.
 
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Keesha

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Absolutely, yes.

In the Tudor Model, there is a spectrum:

1. Empath | 2. Normal | 3. Narcissistic person | 4. Narcissist

People at 3 have high narcissistic traits but don't have the disorder. They do feel shame and guilt. They can understand emotionally the wrongs they are doing and therefore change their behavior with reasonable effort.

Sometimes I think of Anakin Skywalker from Star Wars. The Force has a normal side and a dark side, and the way to the dark side is to indulge negative emotions, hate, fear etc. Living these emotions happens on a spectrum which Anakin does go through. But crossing over to the dark side is a binary event. You are either across or you aren't. Likewise, you cannot traverse between 3 and 4 before a young age (8?), and the difference is that at Anakin's age when he goes over to the dark side he couldn't become a narc if he wasn't one already.

Point is, moving thhrough 1, 2, 3 is possible, but not to or from 4.
I’m a 1 and a 3. I’m not a narcissist but definitely have narcissistic qualities. My empath side is very compassionate however I can get completely lost in other peoples emotions. Unfortunately my narcissistic side tends to try and FiX them.

I’m a good listener until I open my mouth to prove I’m listening. 😬

I think being on the site has many trigger factors that people need to constantly be aware of.

One thing that stands out a lot here for myself is this comment and what I get stuck on all the time.

QUOTE: “The way to the dark side is to indulge in negative emotions.” UNQUOTE

Generally speaking I’m a very positive person. I try to brighten people’s day by being cheerful and positive.

What I find is that some people don’t like chipper people. That saying that misery likes company is so true. Many people are severely depressed so trying to cheer them up is often resented.

Wayne Dyer suggests not thinking about yourself helps decrease narcissistic traits which I agree with however I come here and it’s hard to answer posts that asks your opinion without talking about yourself . If you just try and help people without talking about yourself, you risk coming across as arrogant.

How does one find that in between in trying to help people if most of them are indulging in that dark side? How do you try and help them without going into that dark side or coming across as arrogant?
Do you just just add a comment or two in an empathic manner and leave?

Indulging in negative emotions leads to the dark side. This is so true, especially if it becomes a habit.
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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Indulging in negative emotions leads to the dark side. This is so true, especially if it becomes a habit.

All right, let's remember this applies to Force mechanics in Star Wars :) This does not apply directly to narcissism.
 
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Keesha

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All right, let's remember this applies to Force mechanics in Star Wars :) This does not apply directly to narcissism.
Oh. I’m sorry. I thought we were discussing human emotions here.
Silly me.:whistle:
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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I’m a 1 and a 3. I’m not a narcissist but definitely have narcissistic qualities. My empath side is very compassionate however I can get completely lost in other peoples emotions. Unfortunately my narcissistic side tends to try and FiX them.

I’m a good listener until I open my mouth to prove I’m listening

The underlying assumption in this classification is that a person can only belong to a single category at a given time. It sounds to me like you are a 1 but it is exactly your high emotional thinking that comes with being an empath that you see yourself as belonging to group 3 also, which doesn't ring true.
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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Oh. I’m sorry. I thought we were discussing human emotions here.
Silly me.:whistle:

All right, I see what you mean. Sorry, I didn't mean to execute a putdown. It's probably my high narcissistic traits coming through.

There is certainly a merit to generalizing this analogy. :)
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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Wayne Dyer suggests not thinking about yourself helps decrease narcissistic traits which I agree with however I come here and it’s hard to answer posts that asks your opinion without talking about yourself . If you just try and help people without talking about yourself, you risk coming across as arrogant.

That is an interesting idea. It probably can help to some extent. However, I tend to think that an effective way to overcome narcissistic tendencies is to think about and analyse one's own actions and the feelings and impulses that drive them, and to identify those constructs in terms of a model of narcissism. Then you can recognize those those things for what they are and consciously avoid them.
 
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Keesha

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The underlying assumption in this classification is that a person can only belong to a single category at a given time. It sounds to me like you are a 1 but it is exactly your high emotional thinking that comes with being an empath that you see yourself as belonging to group 3 also, which doesn't ring true.
Thanks but I tend to personalize everything. Isn’t that narcissistic?
I know I’m not normal. I had to read what you said over a few times. Im extremely empathic to the point that it can be unbearable at times.
 
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Keesha

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That is an interesting idea. It probably can help to some extent. However, I tend to think that an effective way to overcome narcissistic tendencies is to think about and analyse one's own actions and the feelings and impulses that drive them, and to identify those constructs in terms of a model of narcissism. Then you can recognize those those things for what they are and consciously avoid them.
Thank you but how does one do this without thinking about themselves all the time? Especially if you’re a loner?
 
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Keesha

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All right, I see what you mean. Sorry, I didn't mean to execute a putdown. It's probably my high narcissistic traits coming through.

There is certainly a merit to generalizing this analogy. :)
In my opinion, I think it’s genius. It breaks down the reasoning how people find themselves in the dark side. Often, they’ve marinated themselves in negative emotions so often that it’s become a habit.
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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Thank you but how does one do this without thinking about themselves all the time? Especially if you’re a loner?

That is a problem, you would need to think about yourself quite intensely.
 
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Keesha

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That is a problem, you would need to think about yourself quite intensely.
Well that’s not the answer I was hoping for 🥴

:rofl2:… sorry. Lol…. Just kidding.
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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In my opinion, I think it’s genius. It breaks down the reasoning how people find themselves in the dark side. Often, they’ve marinated themselves in negative emotions so often that it’s become a habit.

It could be a way for depression to develop into psychosis.
 
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