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Narcissism: Classical model vs. Tudor model

GretaVon

GretaVon

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I have studied the phenomenon of NPD for a good while now, and I have come to the conclusion that the model presented by mainstream psychiatry is mostly useless, their method of diagnosis is likewise, whereas the Tudor model is highly revealing and provides a practical, if difficult, way of diagnosing NPD.

I might add more detail later.

Any thoughts?
 
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Thisisme373

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I’m interested in this. I agree that the mainstream model isn’t that useful, I’m interested also in if people who have traits but not full blown NPD can try to remove those traits or deal with them better.
 
GretaVon

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Absolutely, yes.

In the Tudor Model, there is a spectrum:

1. Empath | 2. Normal | 3. Narcissistic person | 4. Narcissist

People at 3 have high narcissistic traits but don't have the disorder. They do feel shame and guilt. They can understand emotionally the wrongs they are doing and therefore change their behavior with reasonable effort.

Sometimes I think of Anakin Skywalker from Star Wars. The Force has a normal side and a dark side, and the way to the dark side is to indulge negative emotions, hate, fear etc. Living these emotions happens on a spectrum which Anakin does go through. But crossing over to the dark side is a binary event. You are either across or you aren't. Likewise, you cannot traverse between 3 and 4 before a young age (8?), and the difference is that at Anakin's age when he goes over to the dark side he couldn't become a narc if he wasn't one already.

Point is, moving thhrough 1, 2, 3 is possible, but not to or from 4.
 
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Thisisme373

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Thank you & well explained. This helped alot, where did you find the Tudor model if you don’t mind sharing?
Do you know if people at level 3 also need narcissistic supply/fuel, the way that people with NPD do?
 
GretaVon

GretaVon

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Thank you & well explained. This helped alot, where did you find the Tudor model if you don’t mind sharing?
You find him on youtube.

H. G. Tudor

Much recommended. You have to pay him to get the direct injection, but if you watch enough of his free videos you start to get the picture, like a mosaic.
 
GretaVon

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Do you know if people at level 3 also need narcissistic supply/fuel, the way that people with NPD do?
Interesting question!

Being at 3 myself, I can state they don't "need" it in the same way, but enjoy it.
 
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Thisisme373

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Oh I actually have watched some of HG Tudor, very interesting, honest & he has a good reading voice. He is better than others I have watched on narcissism.
Ok, I believe I might be a 3 aswell, I feel sometimes I need reassurance but I’m also not sure if that could be down to being insecure and anxious/depressed. I don’t want to need fuel, i don’t like to rely on people as I’m actually more of a loner type.
 
GretaVon

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Well then, we must continue threading that path together, toward greater empathy!
 
GretaVon

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The Classical model (if there is such a thing established) distinguishes between grandiose and vulnerable narcissists, with the former acting confident and the latter acting nervously, to put it in very few words. There is also the notion of covert vs. overt.

These distinctions are not very helpful when trying to identify and understand narcissistic behavior, and indeed they probably only reflect the position of a narcissist in society. A successful narc is going to act confidently, while the same person failing to achieve success would act nervously.

I myself tried to use these distinctions for a while but gave up on it since they weren't shedding more light on the issues.
 
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Thisisme373

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Well then, we must continue threading that path together, toward greater empathy!
Out of interest what steps are you looking to take to lessening or removing the narcissistic traits you have?
 
GretaVon

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Out of interest what steps are you looking to take to lessening or removing the narcissistic traits you have?
Pointed question :)

I think the best place to start is to listen and observe more when in contact with other people. Listen to their ideas and watch their reactions. Speak less, avoid changing the subject. This is something I've been practicing and will continue to do.

The next step, which I am also undertaking, is compliment people more. To be able to do so with sincerity you first have to listen and think about what they have to offer.
 
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Thisisme373

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Pointed question :)

I think the best place to start is to listen and observe more when in contact with other people. Listen to their ideas and watch their reactions. Speak less, avoid changing the subject. This is something I've been practicing and will continue to do.

The next step, which I am also undertaking, is compliment people more. To be able to do so with sincerity you first have to listen and think about what they have to offer.
Very good, the first part about listening to others, observing, taking interest in what others are saying more I have been doing myself. Do you think doing these things over time will come more naturally, it’s what I am hoping for, to be less self centred.
 
GretaVon

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Very good, the first part about listening to others, observing, taking interest in what others are saying more I have been doing myself. Do you think doing these things over time will come more naturally, it’s what I am hoping for, to be less self centred.
Yes I think so. Us non-narcs have the ability to regulate emotionally and to approach others on an emotional basis. Doing so is rewarding to us. It's like changing diet. The new food has flavor that we can learn to enjoy, whereas to a narc it would be like trying to learn to eat cardboard. It would never be rewarding to a narc and therefore a struggle each time.

There. I even gave you a like. That felt good :)
 
GretaVon

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The prime aims of the narcissist in order of importance:

1. Control over people (in the narc's mind)
2. Fuel (emotional responses of other people to the narc)
3. Character trait acquisition (because the narc arguably doesn't have a personality of their own)
4. Residual benefits (sex, money, usual things)

Tudor lumps 1 and 2 together. I don't understand why because they seem largely distinct, so I prefer not to.
 
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Thisisme373

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hmmm I do see number 1 in myself, trying to have control over people, I don’t do this with all people just the odd person, usually someone who is close like a significant other.
I also see number 4 in me residual benefits, I do this with a few people but it’s like I-refused to see it as exploitive or wrong, I knew it was deep down but felt no remorse.
The other 2 I don’t notice in me. I want to stop these things I do though like trying to have control or being selfish looking for residual benefits from people. I don’t want to be this way, it’s not right & I do feel guilt now that I can see it clearly. I couldn’t see it for such a long time, or I refused to see it.
As I have nigh narcissistic traits but not NPD I should be able to actively change these ways? I am more mindful already I feel.
 

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