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mentally ill off meds problem neighbours

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ramboghettouk

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#1
I've had a lot of problems with neighbours who won't take they're meds and i keep been told i should understand because i'm mentally ill myself, it's not me who's acting in an antisocial way though it is me who's been forced to take extra meds to cope with the stress.

My housing isn't officially for mentally il people but you need problems to get to trhe top of the housing list, those with physical problems are housed in housing with adaptations so it tends to be mentally ill, drug addicts and alcoholics who some would put down as all mentally ill.

These people won't take drugs and like saying the fact theit off meds shows they're not mentally ill, but they don't argue when they're taken to court and some social worker uses mental ilness as an excuse, nor do they argue when it's put on the housing application.

I notice mind is in to using mental illness as an excuse for antisocial behaviour but when someone connects mental illness with antisocial behaviour mind calls them bigots

I find it hard because i don't like taking meds but i've been attacked, threatened, had windows smashed all by the off meds people

I'm at my wits end i've just had abuse from the mentally ill women upstairs when i called the police they made out it was a domestic, that was when she broke my window, when i mentioned it to my careworker he said "is that part of the foreplay" i've decided that with her not been compliant with meds it's best to end the relationship, but feel nervous about doing so, it's just not worth the hassle even if most women would avoid someone diagnosed schitzoprenic like me
 
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ramboghettouk

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#3
What if i said that they are off meds when they behave that way and i can't help feeling theres a connection between them coming off meds and they're behaviour, if you look at those admittted to hospital a lot have come off meds and also nowadays to be sectioned involves acting antisocially quite often

I thought you admitted meds were social control, off meds people are socially out of control
 
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Apotheosis

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#4
I thought you admitted meds were social control, off meds people are socially out of control
I did - I never said that I thought that social control was a good thing - I don't. Psychiatry & social policy should be focused on proper therapeutic care & social support; it isn't; & it is plainly obvious that orthodox psychiatric practice, & passing more draconian levels of social control - has utterly failed in actually helping people, or improving society. How much are the micro social problems you have; directly the result of this social conditioning/environment in the first place? I would wager that all of it is.

You obviously see orthodox psychiatry for what it is, I oppose it for those same reasons. I don't agree that drugging people up is the best solution to these problems.
 
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ramboghettouk

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#5
Your a bit of an anarchist, in my old age, i see nothing wrong with social control, i know most hipppy therapists don't like it, they make enough to live in posh areas then take a delight in tellling those in poor areas what's politically corrfect, they pay a lot of money not to live near my neighbours then call me a bigot when i complain about them.

By the way i don't like drugging people up, but neither do i like been attacked, as far as i'm concerned these people should be given the choice between behaving and prison, i'm not sure whether therapy works with difficult cases with long meds historys, if you've got the money for therapy you probably haven't spent decades on meds
 
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Apotheosis

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#6
By the way i don't like drugging people up, but neither do i like been attacked, as far as i'm concerned these people should be given the choice between behaving and prison,
Then on a personal level you need to do what you need to do.

i'm not sure whether therapy works with difficult cases with long meds historys, if you've got the money for therapy you probably haven't spent decades on meds
So you'd agree that the system is wrong?
 
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ramboghettouk

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#7
maybe we're in agreement, if i didn't think the system was wrong would i be moaning, i just wonder about other systems been better

A friend broke down in the 60s at uni, she saw a therapist who told her the problem was her attitude to authority, these hippys were rebelling and attitude to aythority was very suspect, to point out that therapists are into social control, she had a baby and when she went on meds she was grateful she now kisses her psychiatrists hand, now her views are changing to be fair
 
M

maudikie

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#8
To Rambo

Hve you got a group near to you with someone from te Mental health yeam who attends. I think it would help you tp talk your problems trough with them.
they might have some ideas for you. and be able to get you to a quieter place to live.
 
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Apotheosis

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#9
maybe we're in agreement,
Over certain aspects of things, yes.

I don't think that there are any easy answers, people are very individual, circumstances are different; whoever we are. I try to see things from a personal perspective as an experiential; kind of adventure. The World is obviously quite mad, & most of the people that are in it are quite mad too.

I can certainly understand your attitude to it all. But if we are ever to have a society that we can call civilised; then people need to be treated far better - drugging people & locking them up isn't a real solution; if anything, all it does is make things worse, although granted that some need drugging & locking up. Maybe humans will never have civilised society - the way things are going I doubt it very much; but as idealistic as it is, I think it is good to have dreams, & to look for a better way -

There are certainly pioneers who have found far better ways of treating the mentally ill; that such methods are largely ignored & denied; does not negate their effectiveness, or potential for genuine therapeutic change for the better. What is needed is a 'C' change across the board. I suppose that it is best to start from the premise; that there is something terribly, terribly wrong with the way things are.

It is hard to separate out the personal from the national & global issues in relation to mental illness; & as hard to separate out the issues of the treatment of mental illness with social issues as a whole. Mental Health is an area that touches on many issues & social levels.

In an ideal World, how would you have things?
 
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*Sapphire*

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#10
You probably know all this, but any way, I think the problem is, that many years ago before the 1800s persons with mental health problems were able to integrate with society. They were tolerated and at times revered as spiritual gurus, or as having highly intelligent minds or being philosophers. However in 1828 when the 'madhouse' act came in, these persons and others were automatically put into asylums, and taken away from society. And the victorian era put in a whole host of suffocating rules regarding what is socially acceptable with high expactations for everyone to conform in the same way. Generations following got used to never seeing these persons, seeing differing types of behavior and a high level of stigmatism developed as a result. Society on the whole forgot how to tolerate these persons, and prefered them to be 'locked away' or be drugged up to prevent them displaying behaviors they find uncomfortable; to make them conform to the social etiquettes borne from the victorian era.

Now in recent times the government are trying to re-integrate these persons into society, but they have failed to make adequate provisions to change societies attitudes, help and provide assistance to families, and to put them into a therapeutic community. This is all a matter of re-education and tailoring a holistic care-package to the individual, which needs immediate responses from all the services for those suffering and to assist those that might need it when dealing with problems that may arise from a MH sufferer. This stigmatism is building up again, because when someone is causing problems there is a delayed response from services, and instead of blaming the services inadequacies an uneducated society blames the person suffering.

I agree with you in one sense Rambo. I had a neighbour who was suffering with MH problems. He was a nightmare, I did not sleep properly for two years, frequently had to go to his flat because of concern after hearing smashing glasses, raised voices etc and loud music which would start at 1am. Ambulances, police cars and fire engines were frequent visitors to his flat. I had to keep a diary for the environmental health, but they were not around at night and were of little help. My manager at work even called them because she was concerned of the impact that this was having on my health and at work. The police did nothing. TBH I did wish at times that I could have called his doctor to get him to make him take meds because it was so difficult to differentiate between my personal feelings about him, or about the lack of services he was getting and the lack of help I was receiving to be able to get some resolution on his actions.

With regards to making people take meds. Yes they might conform to what society sees as more socially acceptable behaviour, however this can often result in the person having side effects that make them appear different in social situations and actually increases a stigmatism. For example even still today I have asked people what they think are the characteristics of mental health, and they have said, pacing, drooling and tics amongst others. They seem surprised when I tell them that quite often those characteristics are not down to the mental health problems but the medication they are receiving for them. I am not against medication altogether, I myself have wanted medication to help alleviate some of my symptoms that I was finding unbearable, however we should have a choice. If you get cancer you have a choice not to receive chemotherapy for it, it is not forced on you, even if not taking it results in death.

Of course if someone is a threat to society or themselves, then yes I feel we do need to protect society and unfortunately at the moment we have meds and hospitals to do that. I'm not sure if there is another way right now.

I agree with Apo we do need a whole change of perspective on how we deal with these problems, I don't have the answer. This is a subject that needs to be discussed by an educated society, and i'm afraid because of some stigmatism still, lack of funding and the Govts need for a quick and easy solution I'm not sure we can do that yet.
 
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ramboghettouk

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#11
I take meds to stop me acting in certain ways ans i don't see why other people can't

I was on my way to the gym today and some guy was shouting from a flat, theres a lot of people like that in brent, probably mentally ill and people just try to ignore it, it did upset me and i have enough problems handleing the gym without that

There was a time when i was a young loony when treatment would be forced on people at the slightest excuse, sometimes i feel that was better

This freedom word which thatcher liked so much, nowadays i feel cynical about it
 
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ramboghettouk

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#12
Hve you got a group near to you with someone from te Mental health yeam who attends. I think it would help you tp talk your problems trough with them.
they might have some ideas for you. and be able to get you to a quieter place to live.
I wish you wouldn't push the mental health team, do hyou have any idea what they're like? anyway they closed my case and as for mental health groups, if your so much in to them, you bloody go
 
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*Sapphire*

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#13
There was a time when i was a young loony when treatment would be forced on people at the slightest excuse, sometimes i feel that was better
Better for whom?

The Govt has taken great action to form a society that accomodates physical disability. They insisted shops have wider doorways, install ramps and lifts at great expense. They install traffic lights with bobbled underfooting and noises for the blind and so on and so forth.
There would be a great outcry if they went with a cheaper response which would be to keep them at home, doped out on drugs so they didn't miss going out, just to avoid extra expense.

If the Government took steps that helped society accomodate mental health issues then would there be a need to force treatment at the slightest excuse? Unfortunately because it involves a whole variety of approaches and services, and a tailored solution, rather than a general prescriptive one, I feel the Government chooses to ignore it.

I know it must be distressing to hear people shouting out of windows, but people do shout for a variety of reasons, not neccessarily mental health ones. Perhaps rather than trying to alter the person doing it, you should try to alter your response to it, and I don't mean that offensively. I have found many things that are unchangeable distressing, and the only thing I can change is how I choose to respond.
 
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Apotheosis

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#14
You probably know all this, but any way, I think the problem is, that many years ago before the 1800s persons with mental health problems were able to integrate with society. They were tolerated and at times revered as spiritual gurus, or as having highly intelligent minds or being philosophers. However in 1828 when the 'madhouse' act came in, these persons and others were automatically put into asylums, and taken away from society. And the victorian era put in a whole host of suffocating rules regarding what is socially acceptable with high expactations for everyone to conform in the same way. Generations following got used to never seeing these persons, seeing differing types of behavior and a high level of stigmatism developed as a result. Society on the whole forgot how to tolerate these persons, and prefered them to be 'locked away' or be drugged up to prevent them displaying behaviors they find uncomfortable; to make them conform to the social etiquettes borne from the victorian era.
Very true. Mental illness is equated to powerful emotions, behaviour which is not accepted as normal; & anything that does not equate to societal norms; be it thoughts, ideas, attitudes or whatever. Orthodox psychiatry is the arbitrator of Reality; while in truth the Jury is still out on what Reality is.

The irony is that it's Society itself that displays frightening pathology; & is itself largely insane. I'd agree that there are those dangerous imbalanced individuals that need very specialist care; & society needs protection from them; unfortunately that usually doesn't happen either, the people that need specialist care don't get it, & such people are usually free to commit violent acts, due to massive failings in the system - which, as you have pointed out; has all the mentally ill tarred with the same brush, & gives the general public the attitude & perception that All the mentally ill are dangerous, & prone to irrational violence for no reason; reinforcing negative social stereotypes.

The solution would have to be something very different from how all this has been approached over the past 60 odd years - which when viewed from a detached perspective; the practices of a wholly bio-medical model, & pharmacological orthodox psychiatry; can only be seen as a monumental failure; to society & the individual. But as long as individuals refuse to see these things for what they are; there will be no change; it will only get worse. People need to realise that, in relation to modern MH practise - the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

Orthodox psychiatry is a largely failed system of social control & engineering, with it's roots in pre WWII Germany, & the Eugenics movement. It is not about genuine therapeutic healing; & is a mirror; a faithful reflection of the sickness endemic in our society.
 
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Apotheosis

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#15
Perhaps rather than trying to alter the person doing it, you should try to alter your response to it, and I don't mean that offensively. I have found many things that are unchangeable distressing, and the only thing I can change is how I choose to respond.
This is exactly right. This is what I try my best to apply; to many areas of my life. The area I live in, all sorts goes on. I have to be accepting of it; & remain calm, or I would be driven mad.
 
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*Sapphire*

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#16
Very true. Mental illness is equated to powerful emotions, behaviour which is not accepted as normal; & anything that does not equate to societal norms; be it thoughts, ideas, attitudes or whatever. Orthodox psychiatry is the arbitrator of Reality; while in truth the Jury is still out on what Reality is.
This is so true, and it is reflecting itself in education too. Since there has been an orthodox and prescriptive method of education, there are now arguments to suggest that we are no longer producing natural genius's such as Einstein. We are in fact hindering their potential rather than helping. Look at Leonardo Da Vinci, he was an Italian Polymath, scientist, mathematician, engineer, inventor, anatomist, painter, sculptor architect, botanist, musician and writer. He was in a generation that accomodated his curiosity, his diverse methods of educating himself. In a society that did not largely give him limitations to his exploration of ideas. As a result he was a hugely influential man and a great benefit to advances in his subjects and society then and now. In todays education system, I wonder if he would have reached his potential in those respects, where we are encouraged to focus on one subject only, and learn in one accepted way. I wonder if he would be classed today as someone with a mental health problem? Parallels can be drawn with mental health where there is still a leaning towards a prescriptive and general way of dealing with things and diagnosing which fails to account for the individual, their characteristics, their potential and capabilities.

The irony is that it's Society itself that displays frightening pathology; & is itself largely insane. I'd agree that there are those dangerous imbalanced individuals that need very specialist care; & society needs protection from them; unfortunately that usually doesn't happen either, the people that need specialist care don't get it, & such people are usually free to commit violent acts, due to massive failings in the system - which, as you have pointed out; has all the mentally ill tarred with the same brush, & gives the general public the attitude & perception that All the mentally ill are dangerous, & prone to irrational violence for no reason; reinforcing negative social stereotypes.

The solution would have to be something very different from how all this has been approached over the past 60 odd years - which when viewed from a detached perspective; the practices of a wholly bio-medical model, & pharmacological orthodox psychiatry; can only be seen as a monumental failure; to society & the individual. But as long as individuals refuse to see these things for what they are; there will be no change; it will only get worse. People need to realise that, in relation to modern MH practise - the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes.
Very true I couldn't have put that better myself!
 
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ramboghettouk

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#17
Perhaps rather than trying to alter the person doing it, you should try to alter your response to it, and I don't mean that offensively. I have found many things that are unchangeable distressing, and the only thing I can change is how I choose to respond.
__________________

I find people shouting in the street distressing, there but for the grace of god go i' also quite often people who act like that have ended up physically violent with me

I think it was the daily mail that compared mps to commuters on the tube when a commmunity care patient gets on and starts shouting, i have trouble with the idea of just ignoring it

Theres a mentally ill women who comes round to see the alky, she's drunk totally all the time, she always seems like she's on the point of attacking peope, in fact she attacked one neighbour and he beat her up badly, maybe you think she should just be left, i know thats what they're doing

I just think leaving people like that is not right, theres a whole gamut of behaviours that may not be a danger to society but are distressing

I wonder sometimes if i was in that situation what i'd want the only reason i'm not is i take large quantitys of pillls to try to avoid it
 
schizolanza

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#18
Hi Rambo.I wish there was something I could say to improve things.
I've had my fair share of problems with neighbours over the years.I wont go into detail on here.
 
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*Sapphire*

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#19
I find people shouting in the street distressing, there but for the grace of god go i' also quite often people who act like that have ended up physically violent with me

I think it was the daily mail that compared mps to commuters on the tube when a commmunity care patient gets on and starts shouting, i have trouble with the idea of just ignoring it

Theres a mentally ill women who comes round to see the alky, she's drunk totally all the time, she always seems like she's on the point of attacking peope, in fact she attacked one neighbour and he beat her up badly, maybe you think she should just be left, i know thats what they're doing

I just think leaving people like that is not right, theres a whole gamut of behaviours that may not be a danger to society but are distressing

I wonder sometimes if i was in that situation what i'd want the only reason i'm not is i take large quantitys of pillls to try to avoid it
With all due respect if that is the case Rambo, then why did you not do something about it, rather than just walk past, get distressed, and ignore it? If you felt it could lead towards violence?

Who's responsibility is it in this case?

When my neighbour acted up, I could not ignore it, because some teenagers were leaving his flat in an ambulance which I found disturbing so I took the relevant action and called the police, environmental health and the housing agency. The problem was that these services did not appear to respond immediately or effectively, it was not my problem for not reporting it. I did everything I could but I alone could not change it. So was left with nothing else to do but choose not to get distressed by it anymore, because by getting distressed my mental health was starting to decline, being distressed was becoming damaging to me.

If I do see someone acting violently I react in the same way, but instead of getting distressed I take action. Some teenagers were throwing rocks at a tramp in the street, and I intervened and stopped them. Do you think they should have just been given meds, or just a telling off and some re-educating which I did? I am not saying everyone should intervene in every situation because of personal safety, but a phone call can usually be made.

No I don't think violent acts should be ignored at all. But we have two problems here.
One) we live in a society that seems to take little personal responsibility for reporting it to the relevant authorities, or intervening, or making professionals aware of issues caused by individuals, so that they can assist in the situation.
Two) When they are reported little seems to be done in the majority of cases, whether that be addressing mental health issues, providing ongoing support or taking prosecutory action.

I do understand that using meds in this climate seems to appeal to most people, because there seems to be some apathy by the MH professionals to intervene, they seem to have little powers to enable them to help or fear some form of repercussions for doing so. There also seems to be a complete lack of funding to help them besides using meds. But just because it is like this right now, doesn't mean that I think meds are the only and best ways of dealing with these things. I am convinced that there is a better way if intelligent and more cohesive strategies were put in place and if proper funding was allocated towards it.
 
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ramboghettouk

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#20
There are a lot of people given the ability i'd try to help. one social worker was on about my concern for those worse than me, unfortunately i am vulnerable and a no of times when i've tryed to help i've ended up exploited

I don't beleive in meds but given that in todays world that is the only available thing i have to agree to it's use for me and for some around me given theres nothing else and given that alternatives, in my experience are overrated

I have strong views about thoise therapists who take a delight in judging psychioatrists when those therapists only treat the rich, maybe psychiatrists would rather have other choices

Most mental health services for the poor have a heavy element of social control, fact is they wouldn't be funded otherwise, what party or system is going to be different, it gets me down sometimes, i understand why people are reluctant to use services, but i don't think people have the right to take things out on people in the same boat, if some of my problem neighbours were giving gordon brown a hard time i wouldn't mind so much
 

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