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Taffy

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would you ever have undertaken that education that in retrospect your taxes paid for if it hadn't been paid for
No Rambo... my Dad had to leave school at 14 as he was the oldest of a big family and he was bright he had to work to keep the family going. He spent two years mending boxes in the local fruit market. He was in and out of work after that. He never could have subsidised me through uni.
I would have had to be a clerk or nurse.( not knocking those jobs but I wanted to do something else). That what girls my age traditionally did or factory work.

I spent every summer holiday working in a factory packing baking powder and jelly... it was hard graft and that subsidised my grant and living expenses at uni. Never got a bean off anyone else.. they couldn't afford it.

It wouldn't have been on the agenda for me to go to uni these days.

I struggled at uni too... I was the only council estate kid studying a subject that council estate kids didn't do... everyone else was a David Cameron type. Never really made any friends there as I didn't fit. ...but my grades were better than theirs to get into the course..
It makes me sad looking at the struggle my nieces have and the debts they have... their parents are brassic too
 
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ramboghettouk

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No Rambo... my Dad had to leave school at 14 as he was the oldest of a big family and he was bright he had to work to keep the family going. He spent two years mending boxes in the local fruit market. He was in and out of work after that. He never could have subsidised me through uni.
I would have had to be a clerk or nurse.( not knocking those jobs but I wanted to do something else). That what girls my age traditionally did or factory work.

I spent every summer holiday working in a factory packing baking powder and jelly... it was hard graft and that subsidised my grant and living expenses at uni. Never got a bean off anyone else.. they couldn't afford it.

It wouldn't have been on the agenda for me to go to uni these days.

I struggled at uni too... I was the only council estate kid studying a subject that council estate kids didn't do... everyone else was a David Cameron type. Never really made any friends there as I didn't fit. ...but my grades were better than theirs to get into the course..
It makes me sad looking at the struggle my nieces have and the debts they have... their parents are brassic too
i wasn't commenting on you i was commenting on mayfair, incidentally my dad came top in some brum exam and was offered a paid scholarship to grammer school but his dad had been on the dole since losing an arm in the first world war and sent him out to work to provide a family income at 14, which was why he wanted me to go to uni, went to nottingham one of the oxbridge unis my sister called it as the public schools would send people there seemed half the people were public school, they were used to been away from home got the girls etc, didn't help me ended up taking drugs, i was sharing a room with a druggie the rest history, broke down at 19 got diagnosis of schitzoprenia the dustbin diagnosis
 
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Taffy

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Sorry Rambo... I thought it was a question for me..apologies...

reading about your Dad...funnily enough my grandmother won the Lord Mayors medal for some exam up north..top marks...but had no chance of going anywhere....

She always told me my granddad was a postman but he was a cleaner in the post office and then worked on the docks clearing asbestos out of the ships holds.. no surprise then he died of stomach cancer.

I am so sorry about your diagnosis..I wonder if it would have been the dustbin diagnosis if your Dad had been Louis Mountbatten or someone similar? I doubt it very much. You would be in a smoking jacket now with a fistful of directorships and be deemed slightly eccentric..
That's a crap deck you were dealt..could easily have been me.. my downfall was much later
 
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ramboghettouk

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it may be genetic, genes causing my social difficulties from an early age, the disproportianate migration of genes to the working class etc, maybe my grandfather might not have been a bugler boy in the 1st world war if his genes weren't against him, he might have been a top officer in some bunker well behind the front line

And maybe my dad inherited genes for social difficulties as did me, he marrried my mother in his 40s if he'd married her as usual in their 30s i would have had my crisis in the 60s and they would have been langian parents
 
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Taffy

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it may be genetic, genes causing my social difficulties from an early age, the disproportianate migration of genes to the working class etc, maybe my grandfather might not have been a bugler boy in the 1st world war if his genes weren't against him, he might have been a top officer in some bunker well behind the front line

And maybe my dad inherited genes for social difficulties as did me, he marrried my mother in his 40s if he'd married her as usual in their 30s i would have had my crisis in the 60s and they would have been langian parents
By gum lad... you've convinced me.... do you think we are genetically predisposed to being electoral cannon fodder?... just to get us back on topic.:)
 
Toasted Crumpet

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is your avatar of miliband, it looks like him to me?
my avatar is of Roj Blake from Blake's 7

It's the first episode where he's just discovered the treachery of the Federation.

Blake's 7 ran from 79-81 and was based on the Tories, I believe, with Servalan a Thatcher equivalent

Roj Blake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also I like that he has the "headclutcher" pose in the photo which is something that has been an issue in portraying MH issues in the media recently.

Blake wasn't mentally ill but he had his mind wiped and reprogammed because he was a dissident.

Any questions about Blake's 7, do ask :)
 
burt tomato

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Hey TC. I was watching some recently - It is quite satisfyingly dark. Really quite shocking in fact.
 
Toasted Crumpet

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Hey TC. I was watching some recently - It is quite satisfyingly dark. Really quite shocking in fact.
Yes, and it still stands up today. Saw some clips on the big screen at the BFI last year, it actually looked really good, in spite of not having special effects etc

And Roj Blake does NOT look like Ed Milliband :mad:
 
Mayfair

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@Mayfair......
I don't understand your last para .... or the fact that its a "left " view.... of course people should have the same opportunities .. not based on who your Dad can do a funny handshake with... or what privileged school you went to.
Trying to get disadvantaged people up to the starting line...( for education, job opportunities, training etc etc) with those already there by virtue of their many advantages by birth.... is hardly "leftie" reds under the beds rhetoric.
How does that" stifle people into not having the opportunity to be good at something...?":scratch:

All your arguments seem to be about balancing books... which I understand... people before profit in my book... always has been.
And I write as someone who was once , for a very long time, in the higher tax bracket , before I was unwell.
Which I couldn't have done ( work via a good education) without having a free university education to give me a start..
Come on Taffy, you know me, and know our political views differ.

Bold: Yes you do. You read my responses (and there were numerous) and picked out the one where I didn't write clearly... and I can see my wording error now! :LOL:, and you based your series of strawman's (in this case, nothing that I've suggested) off that and ignored all the other points, because they are accurate!

Nice try ;) I know how clever you are T :D;)
 
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firemonkee57

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I hate the way "strawman" accusations are casually thrown into a debate. Has to be one of the most obnoxiously overused tactics to try and stifle debate.
 
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Taffy

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The other points aren't accurate Mayfair... they are your opinion based on dodgy stats and we know that.
And yes... I agree with Firemonkee .....the "strawman" stuff IS to stifle debate... and peculiar to this forum.... I wasn't being personal in a nasty way whatsoever. Sorry if you thought that. Was talking issues not the person... as you well know.:)

I like to listen to other peoples views and am willing to change my mind. Not everything is black and white and about profit and making money.

I'm not "trying" anything.... and then to say your syntax is weak and that's why I picked on it...please!

Tut tut....

By the way re the tribunals against your former employer.... you refer to them as though they were vexatious.... you don't really know how difficult it is to take to a case to a tribunal or that there is no legal aid for it... or what hoops have to be jumped through to prove you have a case just to be accepted for a hearing...or the money you have to pay up front to lodge a claim. However you are very dismissive of your co workers plight which you seem to view as putting your employer in financial jeopardy rather than the employer being an arse ( legal term):)

It tells me that your former employer wasn't all you crack them up to be.... but you've clearly swallowed the line as they laid you off with a load of guff imo. but no matter.... they can set up another company at some point and carry on as before.

Did they pay you redundancy? Sickness absence rates that are high in a workplace tell me that conditions in the workplace need looking at.... not that fellow employees are lazy. People have high sickness levels for a reason... stress... poor treatment... bullying...family problems and an unsympathetic employer..

So that's where I am coming from..... its about employers treating people in a decent and honourable way. And that's not about "strawman" arguments.

Incidentally I am no brighter than a lot of people on this forum :) and certainly a lot dimmer than most folk here:) but I know pseudo economic mumbo jumbo when its presented as "fact".
 
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Taffy

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I think I might vote Green...
Been reading the manifesto and I like this bit about companies and co operatives.. I think it would work, just my opinion though:) From their manifesto..

Making Corporations Responsible

EC653 We will require companies to ensure fair remuneration and pensions for all workers in companies, and curb excessive pay rises for executives and senior managers. Large and medium sized companies will be required to pay a living wage.

EC654 We will require large and medium sized companies to carry out an independently audited annual audit of their social and environmental impact.
Companies will make the findings of the audit available in an annual public report. The format and content of the report will be specified in legislation but as a minimum it will include: water and energy use; waste management and resource efficiency; social impact; discrimination at work; and details of any health and safety breaches and environmental offences.

Co-operatives
EC655 We favour the development of more cooperative and mutual economic enterprises, whether worker cooperatives owned and controlled by their workers, or consumer cooperatives, owned and controlled by their customers, including mutual financial institutions like building societies and mutual insurers, and sporting clubs owned by their supporters.

EC656 We will repeal the laws that enable building societies and other existing mutual organisations to be changed into public limited companies.

EC657 We would introduce a cooperative development fund operating mainly through local authorities to provide initial capital on a matched funding basis for new cooperatives in the financial and other sectors.

EC658 We will gradually establish legal ways for companies to be transformed into mutual organisations, such as consumer or worker cooperatives in specified circumstances if a sufficient majority of the relevant workers or customers agree. Existing shares will be converted into non-voting equity or loan stock. One important initial circumstance when this might be done is upon the sale of a small business or upon the death or retirement of the owner. Another initial application might be to football or other sporting clubs where a majority of the season ticket holders, supported by the wider local community, might want to bring a local club into mutual ownership. In the longer run we would envisage some process of this kind applying, with appropriate safeguards, to all companies.
 
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ramboghettouk

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theres a social enterprise in harrow seems like combining the worse of day centres with the worse of slave labour gather people get personalised payments to pay the cost of going there
 
Mayfair

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The other points aren't accurate Mayfair... they are your opinion based on dodgy stats and we know that.
What dodgy stats have I used?

And yes... I agree with Firemonkee .....the "strawman" stuff IS to stifle debate... and peculiar to this forum.... I wasn't being personal in a nasty way whatsoever.
No it isn't, it's writing things implying that the other person said them, then argue against that, instead of what was actually written.

They become very common in political debates, especially times like now during election times.

As do also, using argumentum ad populum, as in your last 4 words in the top quote here :)
 
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Helena1

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guess what i got today. a personal letter AND personalised flyer to me from labour. i am on the verge or getting a harrasment order on them. lol i am not voting for them however many leflets they send me!
does everyone get these? it is only me in my household upto now.
 
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ramboghettouk

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remember when my mp who was black and labour was having problems all the black people in the house got a personalised letter on parliamentary note paper, i thought labour is keeping records of skin colour
 
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ramboghettouk

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there was a article about how you vote runs in families and is genetic in new scientist some years ago whether you beleive thatcher theres no such thing as society or blair social inclusion depends on how sociable you are and that is they say controlled by genes