Informal patient and deprivation of liberty

A

Apparentlyapparent

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#1
Hi all, just a question.
I came across a situation, where a person was admitted to an assessment ward as an informal patient. Upon admission, the patient wanted to leave the hospital, however staff on the ward did not let him as they wanted him to stay until he is seen by a consultant ( on the same day). In this situation , they did not apply section 5(4) "nurse's holding power" and their grounds of keeping him in the ward was because he has not been assessed or seen by a doctor yet. Does this mean the patient's liberty was deprived for this period hence breach of his rights? I can understand the both perspective where staff did not feel safe to let go of patient who just got admitted informally.

It would be great to hear what you guys think, and what the right way to handle the situation.
 
SomersetScorpio

SomersetScorpio

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#2
I don't know what the legal in and outs of that situation would be.

If you asking my personal opinion, I would say that yes, they did deprive his liberty. If it were me who they were holding/not allowing to leave, I would definitely try to argue that they were breaking a law.

Unless they applied the nurses section/holding power, they've really no right to keep him there.

When you ask what the right way to handle the situation is, i'm not quite sure what answer you're looking for.
What is right for the patient or right for the hospital?
 
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ramboghettouk

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#3
since when have mental health workers been concerned about the exact legality of they're behaviour, heard in brent if your sectioned a copy of the keys to your place are given to social services so they can get in when you get out, whether the legality of it has ever come up
 
SomersetScorpio

SomersetScorpio

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#4
since when have mental health workers been concerned about the exact legality of they're behaviour, heard in brent if your sectioned a copy of the keys to your place are given to social services so they can get in when you get out, whether the legality of it has ever come up
What?! :eek:
There's no effing way i'd want anybody to have my keys, whether I was sectioned or not.
That's a huge invasion of privacy and yeah - i'd say that's not legal at all.
 
F

fidget

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#5
i doubt that is true. Whenever i've been sectioned and not had anyone to pick up stuff on my behalf after the initial observation period a nurse or my care coordinator comes with me to collect stuff from my flat. This is when i'm in hospital in my borough mind you, last time i was there there was a woman from the other side of London and she had to make do with hospital pyjamas until her son could bring her stuff about a week later. I don't think its likely social services would go into your home without you, if they are trying to section you from home they only come in in pairs. In my current place, cause its supported, staff can come in if no-one has been able to get in contact for you for 3 days but they can'tt touch belongings/open cupboards etc, thats in your contract. In what circumstances would services have the resources to have social workers or whatever going out to people's homes and riffling through their knicker drawers? Seems pretty far fetched. I think that's one of Rambos fantasies cause he longs for support workers
 
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Lilac

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#6
What?! :eek:
There's no effing way i'd want anybody to have my keys, whether I was sectioned or not.
That's a huge invasion of privacy and yeah - i'd say that's not legal at all.
Oh yes where I am interred they take keys off you and then you can't access them when you need to and the same with money.
Last time they forced me to stay in the so called 'hospital' against my will there was one woman who was given hospital gowns which were left open at the back leaving nothing to the imagination and she wet herself and everywhere else and I am sympathetic but one shouldn't have to sit in someone elses toilet. It is degrading and to the person who is left to wet themselves.

The evidence is that the whole sectioning process is illegal and degrading. Basically it is a group of not nice people who gang up on others and make their lives unbearable and degrade them. And each detention is for life even non-sectioned people have to stay on drugs for life and that is being sectioned.

My family don't want to be sectioned but they think it is a great experience apparently being sectioned is nothing to complain of according to them - but they don't want it either. Actually the evidence is that mental health people and my family would love to lock each other up and burn each other alive. After all I don't know what it is like where you go but where I am coerced to go without need and against my will the staff are locked up with the detainees if there is a fire and my family would celebrate that. They are not nice people and they degrade others. (And I am aware that I have used that work 3 times in one form or another).
 
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ramboghettouk

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#7
i doubt that is true. Whenever i've been sectioned and not had anyone to pick up stuff on my behalf after the initial observation period a nurse or my care coordinator comes with me to collect stuff from my flat. This is when i'm in hospital in my borough mind you, last time i was there there was a woman from the other side of London and she had to make do with hospital pyjamas until her son could bring her stuff about a week later. I don't think its likely social services would go into your home without you, if they are trying to section you from home they only come in in pairs. In my current place, cause its supported, staff can come in if no-one has been able to get in contact for you for 3 days but they can'tt touch belongings/open cupboards etc, thats in your contract. In what circumstances would services have the resources to have social workers or whatever going out to people's homes and riffling through their knicker drawers? Seems pretty far fetched. I think that's one of Rambos fantasies cause he longs for support workers
firstly i was talking about social workers having keys for someones flat when they come out on a cto and secondly i know that cpn had keys for the women upstairs flat i saw him go in, just as well as until someone offered to look after her cat me the cat would have been left

when i visited her in hospital the staff wanted me to bring in clean underwear, i refused sayimg i wasn't prepared to go through her underwear
 
BorderlineDownunder

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#8
Once the admission begins you are at the Mercy of the Doctors.

I was once admitted against my will and got literally locked down until cleared by 2 psychs.

4 hours and god knows how much taxpayer $$ wasted.

They have a duty of care once you're in there and the law protects them.

Their duty of care supersedes your right to freedom.
 
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ramboghettouk

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#9
at my local mind theres a whole series of leaflets on peoples rights in hospital, there isn't one on peoples rights in the community
 
BorderlineDownunder

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#10
at my local mind theres a whole series of leaflets on peoples rights in hospital, there isn't one on peoples rights in the community
that's where Police come in.

Downunder they drag you forcibly to the hospital then the Care transfers to the Hospital and they have legal powers to lock you down just like police do.
 
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ramboghettouk

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#11
that's where Police come in.

Downunder they drag you forcibly to the hospital then the Care transfers to the Hospital and they have legal powers to lock you down just like police do.
i'm talking about my right to a certain quality of life in the community, something mind doesn't care about apparently i should just be grateful not to be in hospital
 
BorderlineDownunder

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#12
i'm talking about my right to a certain quality of life in the community, something mind doesn't care about apparently i should just be grateful not to be in hospital
then that's simple.

Keep your hands and your illness to yourself, do not inflict it on others, and you are free to live your life.

People only get committed if they are a threat, either to themselves or to others.
 
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ramboghettouk

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#13
then that's simple.

Keep your hands and your illness to yourself, do not inflict it on others, and you are free to live your life.

People only get committed if they are a threat, either to themselves or to others.
you can't keep it to yourself, as a black friend said you can't hide something like that, it's declared in job interviews by the gp and if you refuse them contact with the gp you won't get the job, meaning you have to make an issue for the benefits, neither can you hide long term gaps in a work history, neither can i hide it from the housing officer, it's the reason for social housing and if i complain about a neighbour will be used to ignore my claim on the grounds i'm making more of the situation than it warrants, incidentally thats a quote
 
BorderlineDownunder

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#14
you can't keep it to yourself, as a black friend said you can't hide something like that, it's declared in job interviews by the gp and if you refuse them contact with the gp you won't get the job, meaning you have to make an issue for the benefits, neither can you hide long term gaps in a work history, neither can i hide it from the housing officer, it's the reason for social housing and if i complain about a neighbour will be used to ignore my claim on the grounds i'm making more of the situation than it warrants, incidentally thats a quote
what I meant was, don't go biking through the streets naked :shrug:
 
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ramboghettouk

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#15
i have never gone biking through the streets naked, i haven't told my neighbour but we were talking about her friend helon, and she said you may not know her but she knows you

heard my neighbour talking today with another friend she's half deaf and shouts, i wouldn;t be surprised they mentioned my schitzoprenia, the neighbours mine schitzoprenia would be a topic, it may be real as much as unreal
 
BorderlineDownunder

BorderlineDownunder

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#16
i have never gone biking through the streets naked, i haven't told my neighbour but we were talking about her friend helon, and she said you may not know her but she knows you

heard my neighbour talking today with another friend she's half deaf and shouts, i wouldn;t be surprised they mentioned my schitzoprenia, the neighbours mine schitzoprenia would be a topic, it may be real as much as unreal
your neighbours sound worse than mine, and that's saying something. :(
 
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Owlface

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#17
I don't know what the legal in and outs of that situation would be.

If you asking my personal opinion, I would say that yes, they did deprive his liberty. If it were me who they were holding/not allowing to leave, I would definitely try to argue that they were breaking a law.

Unless they applied the nurses section/holding power, they've really no right to keep him there.

When you ask what the right way to handle the situation is, i'm not quite sure what answer you're looking for.
What is right for the patient or right for the hospital?
I would agree with the above - If the person was there voluntarily and attempted to leave but was stopped from doing so (either physically by the nurses or because the door is locked) then this is a Deprivation. However, if the person asked to leave, knew how to leave and decided to stay and wait to be assessed, that would not be. It sounds like the nurses should have used their holding powers but it's difficult to say whether a deprivation did occur. What happened in the end? Did the person leave?
 
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ramboghettouk

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#18
probably easier to keep them there informally by bending the rules than to use the mental health act with all those forms to fill out for pressurised staff
 
NicoretteGummed

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#19
then that's simple.

Keep your hands and your illness to yourself, do not inflict it on others, and you are free to live your life.

People only get committed if they are a threat, either to themselves or to others.
I don't think that's the truth.

People get sectioned if they amuse the mental health system and it's employees.

End of.

If you don't it doesn't matter how much the scale of your suffering is or even if you are psychotic-you are left to sink or swim.