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Evidence for Schizophrenia

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david

New member
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
4
I've posted this before and received a reply by email but, not the best techophiliac, I can't fined my post, so at the risk of boring people, here goes again.

I gather that the theory of schizophrenia originates in the early 20th century. Various developments have expanded this concept though it is accepted to be a personality disorder. Essentially, these psychological theories work around the central notion of a "divided self", but there has never been any hard empirical evidence for any of this. After all, how could you prove such a theory ? I don't know if there has been any attempt at personality testing of schizophrenics to find correlates of these theories, but such research would be unreliable for methodological reasons: researcher's values and erratic subject response due to mood change.

What this all boils down to is that there appears to be not a shred of reliable evidence for the concept of Schizophrenia.

There are of course physiological theories which are substantiated by probative evidence, but they say nothing about personality. They could not do so since it is not possible to infer connclusions about personality from genes or neurotransmiters or other physiological evidence. As such these physiological theories cannot be about schizophrenia unless we redefine the term fundamentally.

The diagnosis of schizophrenia cannot be logically inferred from the observed fact of psychosis since it tells us nothing about personality. In fact the diagnosis is asserted without reliable empirical evidence. The stigma can have devastating effects on patients' lives.

I have been degraded, denigrated, patronised and forced to live in absolute poverty for nearly 30 years because of the arbitrary and pseudo scientific speculations of a conservative medical profession more concerned with not rocking the boat than with patients' welfare.

Am I alone in my objections ? I would be very interested to hear the defence proposed by doctors.
 
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Apotheosis

Guest
I gather that the theory of schizophrenia originates in the early 20th century. Various developments have expanded this concept though it is accepted to be a personality disorder. Essentially, these psychological theories work around the central notion of a "divided self", but there has never been any hard empirical evidence for any of this.
Hi David - I largely share your views. From a Lay man's Understanding what I see as "the split", is not a fracture in personality; but rather it is the separating between the "normal consensus reality state" with altered states of consciousness, or the "split" between the real & the unreal in very general terms. I lean more towards Jungian understandings - that this "spilt" is a natural psychological healing mechanism, & the potential is there for integration & a working through of such things. Or there is the potential to move from the fragmented states of psychosis to reintegration & wholeness. There are the strong correlations with schizophrenia & psychosis - with Ego loss & the overwhelming of the Conscious mind by the content of the Unconscious. There are paths out of the maze - most definitely.

In my own life I have received very little in the way of orthodox support or help. I have been through 7 severe "psychoses" over around 14 years. But I have made considerable progress & healing over the years too. I do feel that I have processed & released a lot of stuff. It sometimes seems that my main problems, are not any underlying condition; but the social & medical reactions with people labelled as "mentally ill" & all that entails, including a dependence on forced meds.

Over the years & with my own research into these things & ways of getting better - I have found most help with alternative healing & spiritually based methods. Due to certain traumas early on in my life & of also being a highly sensitive person, I opened up even more to certain things. I was in considerable pain (mental & emotional) in my teenage years - which I responded to by taking street drugs & drinking; which exasperated the condition & helped compound a psychosis. I could go into a very esoteric & spiritual description of what I think happened too. But the important thing is that presently I have made progress - healing has taken place - there are solutions.

It is a great shame that the mainstream has not taken up the pioneering work & ideas which have been formed in certain areas, for the betterment of those so afflicted. I have been focusing recently on letting go of the deep resentments I have with orthodox psychiatry/the system/& society in relation to these matters; & trying to let go of the deep sense of injustice I can sometimes feel in relation to all this.

Maybe at some stage we can have a healing system in this country which more comprehensively & humanely treats people - until that times, it is a case of accepting that this is the way things are; however hard that is to accept.
 
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Twylight

Guest
I agree, with both of you and I wish there was something we could do about it

david's got 30 years, Apotheosis 14 and me 22 years - that's 66 years experience

I didn't think the knowledge I learnt would be useful to anyone else but me, until I found a forum
 
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Apotheosis

Guest
david's got 30 years, Apotheosis 14 and me 22 years - that's 66 years experience
The periods of psychosis happened over a 14 year period - but there is experience before & after with the pre psychotic phase & with recovery. It is more like 20 years of experience with this stuff - so you can change that to 72 years combined experience!
 
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Twylight

Guest
72 years and that's just three of us

I think that we have sorted out all about psychosis and put it in a box, out of the way.

My problem is coping with day to day life on meds - which to me is like an illness in itself

I've found the forum very beneficial.

There must be loads of people who haven't quiite got over the fear of psychosis.
 
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Twylight

Guest
The Psychiatrists argument is that No evidence of foreign chemicals can be found - as they are formed within the brain
 
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david

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Nov 18, 2008
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I note your view, Apotheosis, that there are strong correlations between schizophrenia and psychosis and I certainly don't want to dispute that theoretical psychiatry may have been of value to you personally - the best of luck to you, but I do not understand how any claims regarding a personality split or operations of the unconscious can be verified or falsified. That is to say, these correlations are speculations. There remains no empirical proof of these concepts, and therefore these theories have much the same status as religion. They are not science.

Obviously, psychosis is a very serious condition and it is likely to attract stigma, as we all know to our cost. However, I have been concerned that the situation is exacerbated by the conjectural diagnosis of Schizophrenia, misrepresented as reliable scientific fact when it is guesswork.

Doctors must be aware of these issues but thay are members of a highly conservative hierarchy and are trained not to challenge their profession. It would jeopardise career prospects to criticise established practice.

The diagnosis of Schizophrenia has never helped a single patient, only harmed them. It is not logically necessary for the identification of treatment. In practice that decision follows the identification of psychosis which is by contrast reliable and empirical.
 
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Twylight

Guest
Although I am not happy with the medications I've tried - they have improved

I don't see that there is any other alternativate and just hope they continue to improve

If they took us out of the everyday pressures of life, where perhaps we didn't need medication - we would be back in the ' assylum '.
 
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Twylight

Guest
Although I am not happy with the medications I've tried - they have improved

I don't see that there is any other alternativate and just hope they continue to improve

If they took us out of the everyday pressures of life, where perhaps we didn't need medication - we would be back in the ' assylum '.
Countless autopsys have been done on the brains of dead schizophrenics - they can find nothing physically or chemically ' different '.
 
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Danage

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Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
393
Location
Worcestershire, Great Britain
Although I am not happy with the medications I've tried - they have improved

I don't see that there is any other alternativate and just hope they continue to improve

If they took us out of the everyday pressures of life, where perhaps we didn't need medication - we would be back in the ' assylum '.
I've never been in hospital for mental health problems or a mental institution, so please excuse my ignorance, but don't they force medication down your throats in such places?

Thank you.
 
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Twylight

Guest
Nope, they jab you up the arse with a needle

Years ago they used Chlopromazine - a really thick fluid and a really thick needle - OW

Nowadays they use Acuphase - it's brilliant
 
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Twylight

Guest
Nope, they jab you up the arse with a needle

Years ago they used Chlopromazine - a really thick fluid and a really thick needle - OW

Nowadays they use Acuphase - it's brilliant
They inject into the biggest muscle - your bottom - it slowly leaks into the bloodstream and through the brain
 
D

Danage

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
393
Location
Worcestershire, Great Britain
Nope, they jab you up the arse with a needle

Years ago they used Chlopromazine - a really thick fluid and a really thick needle - OW

Nowadays they use Acuphase - it's brilliant
They inject into the biggest muscle - your bottom - it slowly leaks into the bloodstream and through the brain
Thank you for explaining. My granny works in a mental health unit, but she never explained how they administer the medicine there.
 
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Apotheosis

Guest
I note your view, Apotheosis, that there are strong correlations between schizophrenia and psychosis and I certainly don't want to dispute that theoretical psychiatry may have been of value to you personally
To be honest David - in my more lucid moments, & with detached observation - theoretical psychiatry, of the orthodox kind has been less than useless & in fact damaging & a hindrance. Although Carl Jung I would not class as "orthodox". Jungian based ideas have been of some assistance.

- the best of luck to you, but I do not understand how any claims regarding a personality split or operations of the unconscious can be verified or falsified. That is to say, these correlations are speculations. There remains no empirical proof of these concepts, and therefore these theories have much the same status as religion. They are not science.
Of course it isn't science! My heart felt opinion is that the orthodox psychiatric system should be abolished & is beyond reform. I speak the "lingo" & I can use the orthodox view as one perspective, framework or reference point. Psychosis & Schizophrenia are both umbrella terms. I have had psychiatrists tell me, genuinely, that I am far more the expert of these conditions than they are - that they do not know what the problem is or what they are dealing with. The main orthodox psychiatric diagnoses are subjective opinions based on the presenting of arbitrary symptoms. It amounts to nonsense. An indigenous or shamanic frame of reference is healthier I think, by far. Even if such alternative references do not fully explain the condition either. The psycho/spiritual reference of Jungian type/Shamanic/ego death/& the "Spiritual" do appear to more comprehensively encompass a fuller range; of the depth; of some psychotic experience.

Obviously, psychosis is a very serious condition and it is likely to attract stigma, as we all know to our cost. However, I have been concerned that the situation is exacerbated by the conjectural diagnosis of Schizophrenia, misrepresented as reliable scientific fact when it is guesswork.
Yes I totally agree. The real problems are created by the way these things are reacted to a "dealt" with by Western society & the present orthodox paradigm. It is known, with evidence that well over 85% of those deemed severely "schizophrenic" can fully recover if given the right supportive environment. [John Weir Perry & Diabasis - to site one example]

But recovery, healing & cure - never was, isn't; & never will be the intention of "Western" orthodox psychiatry. This system is at it's basic level a system of social control - nothing more or less.

Doctors must be aware of these issues but they are members of a highly conservative hierarchy and are trained not to challenge their profession. It would jeopardise career prospects to criticise established practice.
I don't know how we change this? How it can be changed? What does someone do when faced with & experiencing severe "psychosis" - reacted to with fear, aggression & control; & is then treated with the orthodox paradigm - arrested - sectioned - forced meds - socially excluded - & subdued & contained within such a society & paradigm. What alternatives are available to people when confronted within this system? especially if people are facing poverty, low income, housing issues & all the rest that usually goes hand in hand with severe mental illness.

The diagnosis of Schizophrenia has never helped a single patient, only harmed them. It is not logically necessary for the identification of treatment. In practice that decision follows the identification of psychosis which is by contrast reliable and empirical.
Again, I agree, & ask again - what do we do?
 
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