Are people with BPD manipulative?

ally41

ally41

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Isn't this similar to passive-aggressive behaviour? What DO you do when you have needs but can't identify what you want or if you can, you don't know how to get it? I have definately been guilty of sulking in my time and of not being discreet about scars because I need someone to notice how bad I've been feeling. Now I'm far on in my therapy I've learned how to identify what I need and ask for it so I don't have to resort to this but I would never judge myself for it, I wasn't taught the skills. People who have the skills don't think twice about them, why would they? They dont understand how difficult it is without them and that leads them to believe that we do it on purpose, they cant imagine that we dont know what we are doing.
 
bullybeef

bullybeef

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Totally agree with you ally41. Well put. We are resorting to childhood survival methods because of our emotional stunting. I personally don't give a dam what these people say from their high horses.
 
M

ms bojangles

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OOps, sorry, you know when you said BPD I thought you meant Bipolar, mind you I've had just about every diagnosis under the sun ... sorry, new and clumsy ... bipolar was the last one I had and seems to fit up to a point ... don't overspend though lol!

Self-harm! Man that really riles me! I learned how to do my own dressings for deep burns; I self harmed to get some relief, like you, Maxitab. I HATE doctors; I DON'T WANT medical attention, but the official line is that we ....do it to get medical attention .... YAWN!!! If I had a bandage they looked at me as if I was pretending - if I took the bandage off and showed them I was telling the truth ... manipulative!

Same with suicidal feelings. Get help. You have the suicidal feelings but you don't want to die. Yeah, right. And if they don't believe you, you'll have to go and top yourself in order to prove you were telling the truth????

And if you do top yourself it'll be ......wait for it .....manipulative!

AAaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! Sorry to be so negative, but .....sorry, anyway!
 
C

cfb107

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"Their frantic efforts to avoid abandonment may include impulsive actions such as self-mutilating or suicidal behaviors" From dsm1v amarican

"and a series of suicidal threats or acts of self-harm (although these may occur without obvious precipitants". from icd 10 european standards

above are two sections borrowed from the DSM1V and ICD 10 and it decribes the use of self-harm to influence things to meet there ends.
Neither of these description of traits use the word "manipulative" and I think that is significant!! The word is being projected into these sentences.

I have this deep down craving for medical attention that comes from my childhood when I wasn't given attention at home and would seek attention and reassurance from doctors. I don't think that makes me "worse" than someone who doesn't crave medical attention. It's just a part of who I am, and I recognise it and where it comes from.

Andrew - I think the problem is that you are using the word "manipulative" to describe experiences that others wouldn't term "manipulative", because they are not deliberately so, or because we are doing it in order to get attention - greatly needed; often life-savingly needed; attention.

I have behaved in a way at times that could be seen as manipulative at times. From the reading I have done, it seems that this word is used in diagnosis in this kind of context: people with BPD can seem to be behaving manipulatively. It is a word with negative connotations and one that I think is unfairly used in connection with BPD, because it devalues our experiences.

A friend who has become very close also is diagnosed with BPD. A few years ago, she was going through a very dark time, and I remember going round to visit her, and her boyfriend, who was caring for her at the time - in response to a text I received from him in desperation. She wanted to harm herself, and the only thing that was stopping her physically was his presence.

This has been seen as manipulative behaviour by others. But the use of that word in conjunction with the experience completely devalues the extreme desperation and pain she was feeling.
 
F

Freya

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Andrew, forgive me but a lecturer who cant construct whole and correct grammatical sentences? Hmmmm.

Anyway, I do not believe that anyone with BPD is any more manipulative than any other person and probably less manipulative than many.
I dont believe that the majority of people with BPD will self harm or threaten suicide unless they mean it, as said seeking help before, during or after this is not manipulation in a negative form, the majority of people dont SH to get attention, they SH to help themselves and then after the fact realise they need help and seek it out, manipulation requires conscious thought of a person to think "If I do X I will have to go to hospital"
I was once accused by a psych evaluator as having taken a very large overdose with an extreme amount of alcohol to gain attention, not to kill myself. To prove them wrong I tore out the IV and tried to leave the hospital but collapsed on the way out. The only reason I had ended up in hospital was because a friend had been calling me and received no answer and had come round knowing I hadnt been doing well and when I didnt answer the door she called the police and ambulance....if she had not done I would have died, as it was I was very ill for quite a time and was in hospital for 6 weeks. 99% of my self harm has gone unseen and unnoticed by everyone, I have never asked for or sought 'help' for an injury caused and have never shown scars or injuries to any of my HCPs and I know this is typical of many who SH. Like me, many who SH go out of their way to harm in ways that are invisible to others as the LAST thing we want is attention, however often people who SH or have suicidal feelings want help to make them stop, its the most distressing thing to go through trying to fight the need to SH and fight against suicide, its draining and practically impossible to resist and it can be helped significantly by having someone there with you to help keep you safe....this may mean telling someone how you are feeling and asking them to stay with you.....you could argue this is manipulation but then would any person in a situation where they felt they were under threat not ask for help from another...therefore all people are equally manipulative.
 
Andrewbpd

Andrewbpd

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freya see your point. but the lecture notes you have seen apear on a projecter screen and are mearly bulet points that are discused during the training
there never intended to be read from one end to another. if you know powerpoint you will understand. because the notes are copyed direct from the slides.
ok i must be on my own here. i have self-harmed to emotionaly hurt and influence someones behavior on many ocations.
eg if you go out i will cut myself... of after the event.. because you went out you made me cut my self.
i have o/d over 50 times yet only 3 genuin suicide atempts. so this must say that the other 50 were attention seeking gestures.
 
F

Freya

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Id assume you need to correctly use capital letters, full stops and spell correctly even in bullet points, where is it you lecture and what on exactly?
I ask because you are responding to this thread as if you are an authority on the subject and therefore know better than others but in all honesty I cant take someone claiming to be an authority seriously if they are unable to use basic punctuation.
 
Andrewbpd

Andrewbpd

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so me ability to spell and right affects my understanding of BPD???
i think that remark is shallow.
you may as well say that people with dyslexia are thick.
 
F

Freya

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No, but I wonder how much of an authority you are on a subject, not your understanding of your own condition but your 'right' to comment on the condition as a whole and generalise that a "trait" of BPD is to be manipulative. You are more than able to say anything about your own experiences and feelings but to put your opinions across as more of an authority I would expect you to have some proof that you are such not just your word for it.
NB. My partner is also dyslexic so dont start on that one.
 
A

Ainsworth

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you show me one person in this world who hasnt ever manipulated a situation for their own gain and i will show you a liar.

i have never sh'd for attention or to make someone take notice, its hidden. my OH doesnt even see it until days after. the Borderline world can be a very lonely place because we cant cope correctly in the real world. we havent learnt the correct social behaviours to be able to deal with everyday things. hence our coping skills (which arent socially acceptable or understood by many)
 
maxitab

maxitab

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Yes, I think we are all in agreement with you there unremarkable, this issue is that it has been said that this is a trait and intrinsic part of BPD, and there are (apparantly) quite a few of us who do not agree....any human is capable of manipulation, peeps with BPD neither more nor less than the average imo.
 
A

Ainsworth

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no its not a trait, or a trait i have and im dx under ICD10

if we look atBPD logically i dont see how the borderline can be manipulative the emotional mood swings are to extreme for rational thought imo

when we are highly emotional, we cant reason our thoughts or bring ourselves to point of any control. everything is moving fast and the emotions are physically hurting us and everything is reactional based on what we feel or what is happening around us. the other extreme is to feel nothing and then the sh kicks inbecause we are dead inside.

in both those places i cant see anyone having the ability to think about how they will plan the manipulation of another person
 
Andrewbpd

Andrewbpd

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Well thanks for that!
I suffer from a mild form of dyslexia and you sure know how to boost
Confidence and self-esteem in a person.
I was under the impression that this forum was on the subject of BPD
And not ones ability to transcribe the English language in to text.
When I do the condition management courses for Rethink
It involves service user scribing on flip charts and the first rule is that
We don’t care about spelling and punctuation it’s the content that’s important.
I work for
Rethink
Focusline
Derby University
Partnerships in care
And my own company.

And never have I been criticised or judged on my ability to transcribe the English
Language.
And I really don’t know why this subject has arisen.
 
delatext

delatext

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I think "normal " people can be manipulative depends on the person really, the nurse should have known better but then people get labeled every say unfairly
 
F

Freya

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It arose because I asked for proof of the authority you profess to have on the subject of BPD, especially as you are making claims that those with BPD are more manipulative than those who do not have BPD and that it is a 'trait' of BPD to be manipulative.
Im not calling your personal issues into question, only your professional ones. You read very well for a person dyslexia, I had assumed it was severe as even my OH with fairly severe dyslexia (he could not read nor understand this thread for eg) can use full stops and capital letters accurately but everyone has different problems and if your dyslexia is very mild it explains why you would be able to construct a sensible plan for a lecture. Your spelling and punctuation suddenly got a heck of a lot better, so forgive me if I am still rather dubious of your claims to authority on the subject. If you want to say you know better than others than you must expect this to be questioned surely?
 
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