Are people with BPD manipulative?

maxitab

maxitab

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This accusation has been going on for many years. To me, manipulation involves a thought out and deliberate, conscious choice. While I am not saying that on occasions BP's can be manipulative, I think this is true for anyone. The difference is in the conscious intention. Mostly, people with BPD are not aware they are attempting to (usually desperately) get their needs met, and while we have very intense emotions we are often unable to fathom the true emotional responses of others and often misconstrue them.
The manipulation charge is another of the many that point to people with PD as being 'bad/nasty/immoral' rather than seeing us as suffering and desperate.
 
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Freya

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I agree with maxitab. I would never, ever consciously manipulate a situation. I may have done without knowing it but I would be mortified if anyone were to say I had done anything bad, I have a desperate need for people to like me, to think only good of me and I wouldnt ever consciously do anything that would make me seem otherwise.
I hate that BPD comes with a lot of "bad person" labels.
 
maxitab

maxitab

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Me too! I try to tell people I am the goodest of the good.....

Seriously, I do try to challenge these views when I encounter them, verbally and by my behaviour, but sometimes people have already made up their minds.....
 
Andrewbpd

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yes many people with BPD can be very manipulative but will denigh it, others are not aware that they do.
the problem is that BPD trait is being manipulative so wether you are or not the common
view will be that we are.
 
amathus

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goodness knows!
Going back to my OP,I was deeply shocked at the thought that other people considered me manipulative,
I thought I had usually tried to be helpful and amenable. I too have this desparate need for appreciation.
Challenging any opposite views has usually made the situation worse. As maxitab says, 'sometimes people have already made up their minds....'

qf.
 
maxitab

maxitab

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Er...as far as I am aware, 'manipulation' is not mentioned in any work on BPD as a trait.....it is a myth that people with BPD are any more (or less) manipulative than anyone else.....and I would not want anyone telling other people it is a recognisable trait. People who say it is are uninformed and in my opinion, prejudiced!

Wiki:Trait, a characteristic or property of some object.


In Trait Theory, the traits are introversion, extroversion and neuroticism. I see nothing about manipulativeness.....!
 
Andrewbpd

Andrewbpd

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i am a recovery worker and a telephone support worker and a lectura at universitys and i have been the
victim of manipulation and used it myself. the diffrence is i can admit it so i can address it.
manipulation is usuly using self-harm.
 
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ms bojangles

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Everybody is manipulative. Like you'll give the guy in the chip shop a big smile in the hope he'll give you a generous portion of fish and chips. Innocent enough, eh?

But, yeah, what is 'manipulative'? ... I remember ringing a helpline once and saying that I felt constrained (manipulated!) to please everyone and being what they wanted me to be, in order to please them. (This is a long time ago!) I was rather shocked to be told, 'you admit to being manipulative!'

Hmmm... a psychiatrist, a social worker, will expect me (should I ever darken their doors again, heaven forbid!) to be a 'good patient', a 'good girl' (puke!) And if I do my best to curry favour, will no doubt note that I'm 'manipulative' because I try to please them.

Again a long time ago, I was told I could have more therapy, but when I said I'd like it, was eventually accused of 'manipulating the system.'

Isn't it, quite often, the system that's manipulating us?

Sorry if I don't make enough sense, I'm new here but have long long angry history!!! LOL! Not!
 
maxitab

maxitab

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When I have SH'd it has been because I was desperate and in very acute inner agony of mind, not because I was manipulative, as I said, everyone is manipulative....we are all human beings, and I object to people with BPD being characterised as any more manipulative than anyone else on the plant. I didn't say people with BPD do not manipulate, it is just that is not an official trait of people with BPD and those who have said to others that it is are misguided and promoting yet another negative stereotype which I very much object to.....
Just because others accuse us of being so does not make it so, and I think we all need to work together to challenge such negative stereotypes and replace them with insight, understanding and compassion.....
 
Andrewbpd

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"Their frantic efforts to avoid abandonment may include impulsive actions such as self-mutilating or suicidal behaviors" From dsm1v amarican

"and a series of suicidal threats or acts of self-harm (although these may occur without obvious precipitants". from icd 10 european standards

above are two sections borrowed from the DSM1V and ICD 10 and it decribes the use of self-harm to influence things to meet there ends.

and another.....
"Antisocial Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder are both characterized by manipulative behavior, individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder are manipulative to gain profit, power, or some other material gratification, whereas the goal in Borderline Personality Disorder is directed more toward gaining the concern of caretakers" (American Psychiatric Association)
 
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maxitab

maxitab

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to influence things to meet there ends.

This is not manipulation......
When I vote am I manipulating then...? Voting is a serious attempt to influence the outcome to meet my ends, to get a better life. None of the above quotes mentions manipulation.
To me manipulating is when someone DELIBERATELY AND DEVIOUSLY does something for their own selfish aims.

"Manipulation or Desperation ?
It's no secret that non-BPs often feel manipulated and lied to by their borderline loved ones. In other words, they feel controlled or taken advantage of through means such as threats, no-win situations, the "silent treatment," rages, and other methods they view as unfair.
We believe that, in most cases, the BP's behavior is not intentionally manipulative. Rather, this kind of behavior can be seen as desperate attempts to cope with painful feelings or to get their needs met-without the aim of harming others" (Bpdcentral, “Are people with BPD manipulative?”, www.bpdcentral.com 2001)

As I have remarked elsewhere on this forum, intention is everything.

If my intention is to have someone notice I am desperate and suffering, then what is that?
If my intention is to make someone else feel awful, what is that?

The first is real need, the second is manipulation.
On all occasions when I SH, my feelings are about ME.......how I am feeling, how desperate I am. I am not thinking about anyone else! To be honest at that moment I just couldn't give a toss about anyone else.
 
Andrewbpd

Andrewbpd

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maxitab wye are taking this personly???? the debate started out (can people with BPD be manipulative)

reply.... yes for some

no for others.

personly i have self-harmed to influence other peoples behavior so are you going to judge me for being honest.
because it is being man enough to admit the issue that has aloud me to manage it.
 
maxitab

maxitab

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I'm taking it personally because any generalisation about people with BPD includes me!!!!


However, I am now at a place of peace with it, since my conclusion from the discussion was as you have said, and I agree. I just don't want you ( or anyone!) saying we have this as a trait of our illness. I agree, we can be as manipulative as the next person, but that's cos we are human, not cos we have BPD. I hope you understand what I mean now.....maybe I said it better here than in all my other posts. Sorry, I didn't mean to get ratty!

It means alot to me when people can put their hand up and say 'yes guilty' because I am extremely willing to do so myself and hate the usual reserve that prevents many people from admitting stuff openly. I admire your honesty. I have manipulated people too, of course I have, but mostly with my word power......so yes, some of us do, some of us don't . Maybe we can do some training together and rid people of the myths....
 
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