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Are 17century males chauvinists

AlwaysinCrown

AlwaysinCrown

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In the past I used to have romantic affection and fantasies about historical figures. I've started to perceive them as sexists who didn't understand women and their needs but my fear/anger get worse yesterday after seeing "Tulip Fever" , especially after seeing the character named Cornelis who behaved like a typical chauvinist. So I guess males in XVII century behaved like this one. I couldn't see the whole movie, for the first in case of this character, for the second this movie was boring. I feel a big hatred to males from those period . Do you also have this?
 
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bpd2020

bpd2020

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I think in such times women were not treated fairly or looked on as equals. I am sorry you feel upset. I feel times have moved on a lot now and decent men see women as equal now.
 
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Scapes1986

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I think in such times women were not treated fairly or looked on as equals. I am sorry you feel upset. I feel times have moved on a lot now and decent men see women as equal now.
"Women's suffrage is the right of women to vote in elections. Beginning in the mid-19th century, aside from the work being done by women for broad-based economic and political equality and for social reforms, women sought to change voting laws to allow them to vote. National and international organizations formed to coordinate efforts towards that objective, especially the International Woman Suffrage Alliance, as well as for equal civil rights for women."


@AlwaysinCrown
I dont have any fears or problems and that's because of the woman's rights movement. Reminds me of the current me too movement. I'm sry you feel this way.
 
Someone_alone

Someone_alone

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I think hate is what got those people to be that way in the first place. Having hate or resentment toward someone is a dangerous cycle. I have been hurt by many people in my life but I know holding hate towards any of them would not be beneficial. People are often lost thinking they're doing the right thing when they've just been corrupted. Many men and many people, in general, have been corrupted to have belief systems that aren't good. This doesn't necessarily make them a bad person but rather someone that doesn't understand the reality of a matter. All we can do is move on with the mindset of helping others and learning from one another. Remember that hate doesn't lead to friendships, hate boils, and rots a person and soon their emotions corrupt their morals. You may dislike the way men have been and are still to this day but all you can do is spread a message of positive change otherwise we will be repeating history and failing to be better than our predecessors
 
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Zoe1

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you need very specialised help
I had an issue like this , I worked on it with therapy and phone lines
and its eased up a bit now !

good luck with it !
 
AlwaysinCrown

AlwaysinCrown

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Eh, the way this character treated his wife made me really angry. BTW In my opinion males treated women in 17 century, earlier and a bit later as a machines for giving birth. I've read some couples in this period or in the past were really in love but I think there're only myths. How could you love someone if you forced the women to give as many offspring as she could? 👺
BTW Alicia Vikander who starred in this movie told it's just about sexism and chauvinism.
 
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khuang

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Women were literally expected to just sit there and look pretty when not doing housework until about the Victorian era when women finally got some say in the house. This is the true tragedy of Marie Antoinette who wasn’t some haughty self center b**** like some historians try to claim she was. She didn’t even say that cake quote. Marie actually cared about her people and even donated money when there was an actual famine in France so people could have something to eat. She even refused to go through fields growing crops and would go on foot around the fields out of respect for the farmers where other nobles went right through the fields in their carriages without a single care in the world. Problem for Marie was that she was a woman and even as a Queen she still had no actual power or say in how the citizens were treated. And the fact she was forced into a loveless marriage didn’t help either.
 
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Purpleplum

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It's the abuse of power and it happens everywhere. Women didn't have any power since they needed a man to support them financially and sometimes physically. Now women no longer need men for financial support and the world today is far less physically demanding.
But now there are women pushing it the other way to the extreme.

We all can abuse power. They just have a better opportunity to do so
 
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Nukelavee

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People tend to forget that, for most of history, nobody had the right to vote. It didn't exist.
When countries like Britain began to give the vote, it went to the nobility and wealthy landowners.

Most men didn't have the vote until teh 18th and 19th centuries. Even America, in the beginning, the vote was only meant for landowners of a certain wealth.

So, the period where the average man got the vote but women didn't was only a couple centuries. Which was unfair, but not as unfair as we like to think.

Women weren't baby making machines for the sole benefit of males. Couples had lots of children, because many children never made it to adulthood. to increase the odds of having surviving offspring, families had lots of kids.
I've read some couples in this period or in the past were really in love but I think there're only myths. How could you love someone if you forced the women to give as many offspring as she could?
They weren't forced. When your children will likely die before ten, you breed spares. Not to mention, when most people were involved in agriculture, farming and the like just to survive, without machinery, you need a lot of manpower. So, lots of kids were needed to make certain everybody who could, didn't starve or freeze.

Also - take into account without birthcontrol, getting pregnant was a risk every time you had sex. And, no, it wasn't nearly a case of men always forcing themselves on wives, women enjoy sex as much as men.

Men worked just as hard as women did, the average male didn't have any real free time, either.

Most people only know what life was like centuries ago from movies, which can't be trusted. they view history through the biased lens of modern experience. And they transplant modern values as an overlay of the past.

Not to mention, there were always women who controlled finances, women who had businesses, women who had power. The whole premise that men distort history to edit out accomplished women is true, much of the time. Which, again, means we have a distorted idea of how uneven things were.

It's like people believing the Catholic church burned witches - they didn't, that was Protestants.
 
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Elisante

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Excuse me, but Sophia, the female protagonist of the movie you mentioned, also sucked. *Spoiler* for those that haven't seen the movie. She cheated on her husband and faked her own death. Women were never morally better than men.

As for your claim that there was no love back then, it's laughable at best. It's the biggest generalization I've ever heard.

And what does chauvinism has to do with the treatment of women?
 
AlwaysinCrown

AlwaysinCrown

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Excuse me, but Sophia, the female protagonist of the movie you mentioned, also sucked. *Spoiler* for those that haven't seen the movie. She cheated on her husband and faked her own death. Women were never morally better than men.

As for your claim that there was no love back then, it's laughable at best. It's the biggest generalization I've ever heard.

And what does chauvinism has to do with the treatment of women?
Remember how did her husband called her and how"encouraged" her to having sex. There was no passion between them.
 
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Elisante

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Remember how did her husband called her and how"encouraged" her to having sex. There was no passion between them.
Is that an excuse to cheat? Or is it a valid argument to come to the conclusion that every man was an asshole and love didn't exist?
 
AlwaysinCrown

AlwaysinCrown

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Is that an excuse to cheat? Or is it a valid argument to come to the conclusion that every man was an asshole and love didn't exist?
I argue with the second one.
 
B

blue spark

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Sunny England.
I think hate is what got those people to be that way in the first place. Having hate or resentment toward someone is a dangerous cycle. I have been hurt by many people in my life but I know holding hate towards any of them would not be beneficial. People are often lost thinking they're doing the right thing when they've just been corrupted. Many men and many people, in general, have been corrupted to have belief systems that aren't good. This doesn't necessarily make them a bad person but rather someone that doesn't understand the reality of a matter. All we can do is move on with the mindset of helping others and learning from one another. Remember that hate doesn't lead to friendships, hate boils, and rots a person and soon their emotions corrupt their morals. You may dislike the way men have been and are still to this day but all you can do is spread a message of positive change otherwise we will be repeating history and failing to be better than our predecessors
Hate rots from the inside out,hate makes you bitter and twisted.
 
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