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    Thread: Was I wrong about what psychotherapy is (or could be, or should be)?

    1. #1
      Chimera
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      Default Was I wrong about what psychotherapy is (or could be, or should be)?

      In another thread, http://www.mentalhealthforum.net/for...atic-nightmare, two days ago, I wrote about the horrible experience I had just had when naively trying to get a human response from the local Community Mental Health Team. That is by the by - it is large subject in itself, it's not just about this CMHT, or even just about NHS mental health services in general (although that is probably the main thing), and I will probably try to write about the larger issue in another thread some time - but it reminded me strongly of another bad experience I had at the hands of the same institution in 2007. At the time, I posted a lot about it to the Usenet newsgroup alt.suicide.holiday (ASH), including this post https://groups.google.com/group/alt....6971b8204342eb, from which I quote:
      However, I've been through much worse experiences, and recovered, so I guess I'll get through this one. It's just the relentless accumulation of bewilderingly bad experiences over such a long time that's soul-destroying. (Or at least it feels soul-destroying, but my old soul seems to be made of sterner stuff than anyone would imagine, given the softie that I am!) And I really am in despair over the entire notion of "psychotherapy" - just how many blows can my faith in that nebulous notion take, before it breaks altogether? I thought the end of my last therapy was the last straw, and although it wasn't, perhaps this is.

      My notion of psychotherapy seems so simple, too. To me, it doesn't mean some mysterious procedure or technique, but the bringing into conversation of what has been kept out of conversation: that, and nothing more. All the mystery resides in: (a) conversation itself; and (b) whatever keeps certain things out of conversation.

      Cunning techniques and procedures might well be needed to bring hidden things into conversation, into human relationship. But they are never the heart of the thing, never what does the "healing". What has healing properties is just: conversation, relationship, ordinary human things.

      This is more or less what I've believed about psychotherapy for decades, and I still believe it, yet nothing ever seems to work out for me. I don't think I'm wrong, yet everything seems to be telling me I'm wrong.

      I spoke quite simply and honestly and modestly to this woman today. I knew what I wanted. I spoke clear English. I didn't rant, or do anything weird. I made no unusual demands. Basically, I said I needed someone to talk to. I elaborated on that a little, but not much. I didn't say anything odd, or even philosophical.

      But for her, it was all about forcing some particular pseudo-scientific, pseudo-medical technique on me, or else sending me away empty-handed, which is what she did in the end. She had a hammer, so I had to be a nail; I didn't want to be a nail and be hammered, so she had no use for me. What I wanted or needed or felt or thought was never for one moment an issue for her.
      Does what I wrote about psychotherapy there seem right, or not?
      Last edited by Chimera; 11-12-11 at 18:38. Reason: Minor error in URL for forum article
      Thanks gave thanks for this post

    2. #2
      Senior Member Petalsoup's Avatar
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      there are so many types of therapy, I guess the really technical approaches work for some people but not others. Its such a shame there isnt a wider variety available on the NHS. Don't give up because not all therapy has to be like that. Did you ask this therapist about her approach, and whether you felt it would be OK for you?
      'I am I am I am'
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    3. #3
      Senior Member bluenomore's Avatar
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      Hi, interesting post. I'm only two sessions into my own psychotherapy, so it's too early for me to give my own opinion. What you say makes sense though - I'd be interested to know what other people think.
      Life's too short to be blue - blue 2012

    4. #4
      Chimera
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      Quote Originally Posted by Petalsoup View Post
      Did you ask this therapist about her approach, and whether you felt it would be OK for you?
      That question deserves an answer. (However, I strongly don't want this thread here to become all about what happened with this one woman in 2007.) I must apologise for the necessary length of the answer that follows. (The short answer, however, is: "Yes"!)

      Quoting as briefly as possible from another (even longer!) article I posted to ASH at the time https://groups.google.com/group/alt.suicide.holiday/msg/b12aa4f99eb651e8, within hours of the assessment interview, while I was still in shock, and impressions were still fresh, vivid, clear, and pin-sharp:
      She was controlling and patronising in her manner throughout. She also showed astonishing ignorance about psychotherapy, her own field! She clearly felt that she had to establish and maintain authority throughout. I kept thinking "control freak, control freak ...". But I never said anything directly to express my strong dislike of her (which was itself a mere reflection of her evident strong dislike of me, formed before she had even seen me).

      [...]

      My best theory about her attitude is that, after doing a psychology degree, and perhaps a PhD, she has been trained in cognitive therapy (I didn't actually ask - the entire interview only lasted half an hour), and this (or whatever her training was in) has given her a blinkered view of the entire phenomenon of psychotherapy. She talked down to me, in a controlling and patronising (and above all, completely illogical - I'll come to that in a moment) way, about things which, I quickly realised, I actually know far more about than she does. I think part, maybe even all, of her hostile reaction to me may have derived from various things I wrote in my response to the questionnaire (at least one of which, I must admit, was largely bluff or bullshit - but I admitted as much even in writing it) which showed that I had read a bit of Freud, and had had years of experience of analytical psychotherapy (which had mostly been useless, or even harmful - I'm not starry-eyed about it at all). So she was insecure, and she attempted to compensate by acting authoritative and not listening to a word that I was saying.

      [...]

      Psychotherapy, for her, is a managed and time-limited procedure, subject to an agreed contract, and aimed at achieving clearly stated "goals" or "targets". (This is to some small extent an inference on my part, but based closely on many things she actually said.)

      Any idea that the part of the self that does the controlling and managing, and setting of targets and goals, and making of contracts ... that that part of the self might itself come into question in psychotherapy, was clearly anathema to her.

      I must emphasise this. She repeatedly spoke as if, not only did she not in any sense believe in analytical psychotherapy (fair enough - I'm not sure that I do, either!), but she did not know what it was, and she even repeatedly spoke (contradicting herself, of course) as if it literally did not exist!

      [...]

      She said (patronisingly, as if speaking to an ignoramus) that psychotherapy was always time-limited (to about three months), goal-directed, and subject to a contract agreed at the start. She did not merely say that that was the only kind of psychotherapy on offer. (However, in other parts of the conversation - perhaps only after questioning from me - she did put it this way. But she never once said a single positive thing about what was actually done in psychotherapy. Everything she said was negative, or purely managerial, even when I invited her to explain something in positive terms about the kind of psychotherapy she believed in.) This wasn't a misunderstanding; she repeated it when questioned.

      So I said to her that, when left to their own devices, people will willingly nearly bankrupt themselves in order to pay for sessions several times weekly of analytical psychotherapy that can (notoriously) go on for years. Her reply to this was the non sequitur that "not all people" do so. Patiently (I was patient, logical, and polite throughout the interview, in spite of my slow-burning anger at her ignorant and patronising control-freakery) I explained that I didn't mean "all people", I meant "some people", and that I was one of those people. To this, she simply had no reply. Even this simple remark had taken her out of her script.

      When I observed, reasonably, that I could understand the economic reasons for only offering short-term forms of psychotherapy (this was the NHS - I'll refrain from giving a long history of my involvement with the NHS, and my opinions about it, except to say that the very worst, the most shocking responses I have ever encountered from psychotherapists were not from any working for the NHS, but from some working privately), she wouldn't even admit that it was a simple matter of economics, but tried to hint mysteriously (again, without giving a single bit of positive information) that there were other reasons why this kind of psychotherapy was apparently best - not only for "some people", but for everybody.

      In short, she appeared completely brainwashed (and to be trying to brainwash me). I'd probably have been better off talking to a Scientologist or an evangelical Christian.

      She struck me as an apparatchik, a functionary, employed by Great Britain PLC to keep the human components of the factory running, by fixing their supposed cognitive machinery when it goes wonky. (And mine is wonky! - that's the maddening thing - I really badly need help.)

      I have never, ever had such a bad "assessment interview" for psychotherapy (or indeed anything else). It was worse than merely incompetent; it was borderline insane, in view of what (so-called) "mental illness" is, and what psychotherapy is. (To say this is not to imply that I have a clearly worked out theory of either - I do not - I only have intuitions, and much experience.)
      Thanks gave thanks for this post

    5. #5
      Apotheosis
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      Quote Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
      Does what I wrote about psychotherapy there seem right, or not?
      To me it makes perfect sense - to allow someone to explore & go into whatever they need to share; with patience, kindness & genuine acknowledgement. To just genuinely listen.

      The fact is that most don't - they are incapable of it. There is also the fact that there appears to be some kind of very powerful collective delusion going on - I'm trying to figure this out at the moment.

      I spoke to a woman I know (not that well) for over an hour this evening about some of the aspects of things about MH - To cut a long story short - I may as well have not said anythng; she basically kept saying that she had a fiend with schizophrenia & depression who was lethargic & the Doctor changed her tablets & now she feels wonderful!?

      OK - Maybe that's the problem? I don't know any more.

    6. #6
      rasselas
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      Everything you've written there Chimera makes sense to me. Thankfully my therapist was a 'critical psychologist' - a very canny individual that recognised the value of being human and the limitations of therapy.

      Critical psychologists, like critical psychiatrists, are an endangered species.

    7. #7
      Chimera
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      Quote Originally Posted by Apotheosis View Post
      There is also the fact that there appears to be some kind of very powerful collective delusion going on - I'm trying to figure this out at the moment.
      Good. It needs figuring out. It isn't easy! The more people trying to figure it out, the better.

    8. #8
      Chimera
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      Quote Originally Posted by rasselas View Post
      Everything you've written there Chimera makes sense to me. Thankfully my therapist was a 'critical psychologist' - a very canny individual that recognised the value of being human and the limitations of therapy.

      Critical psychologists, like critical psychiatrists, are an endangered species.
      Fortunately, I really like the counsellor I'm seeing at the moment. And I'm not even having to pay! (Otherwise I couldn't see anyone at all - I'm worse than flat broke.) The long Christmas and New Year break has probably been torturing me - it's a standing joke among people in therapy that they fall apart during holidays, and I'm no exception!

      He is trained in (and teaches) something called "Integrative Psychotherapy and Counselling". He describes it (necessarily only briefly - because, of course, we had more urgent and immediate things to talk about) as a combination of the psychoanalytical with the humanistic and/or existential, which explicitly repudiates even the possibility of there being any single Correct Theory. I'm not entirely sure how compatible that philosophy is with my own fanatical philosophical realism (which I suspect he finds quietly amusing), but it makes sense, and it's certainly better than its more familiar polar opposite!

      Unfortunately, I'm only seeing him for a few sessions, for an assessment. Indeed, the assessment is already complete, and he is just being nice and letting me have a couple of extra sessions. I may only be having one more, for all I know. (Sob.) Then it'll probably be a long time on a waiting list, to see someone else, who I might not even get on with at all (but will probably try to hypnotise myself into getting on with, damaging myself in the process).

    9. #9
      rasselas
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      That makes no sense. You are assessed, build a rapport - then get handed over to someone else. Bizarre doesn't seem a strong enough word.

    10. #10
      Senior Member McMurphy's Ghost's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Apotheosis View Post
      To me it makes perfect sense - to allow someone to explore & go into whatever they need to share; with patience, kindness & genuine acknowledgement. To just genuinely listen.

      The fact is that most don't - they are incapable of it. There is also the fact that there appears to be some kind of very powerful collective delusion going on - I'm trying to figure this out at the moment.

      .
      The most likely explaination for this is that most mental health professionals are more concerned about demonstrating the "rightness" of their chosen approach, they are less interested in the person infront of them. This goes for nearly all iatrists and ologists of every discription.

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